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Amex loses EU appeal on BA Amex interchange fees – what next for loyalty co-brand cards?

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The end could be approaching, medium term, for the free British Airways American Express credit card after American Express lost a key European Union ruling last week.

The decision is highly likely to mean that merchant fees on the British Airways, Starwood, Nectar, Costco and Harrods American Express cards must be capped at 0.3%.  American Express Gold, Platinum, Business Gold and Business Platinum will remain uncapped.

In effect, although this is not strictly how it works, the interchange fee is the fee charged to a retailer for accepting a payment card.

British Airways BA American Express Amex credit cards

You can read the full Advocate General ruling here.

This is not binding on the High Court of Justice for England & Wales but – as it was they who asked the EU Advocate General for his opinion – it is almost certain to be accepted.

It doesn’t take a genius to realise that the free British Airways American Express is a dead duck long term with 0.3% interchange fees, given that Amex will be paying BA something close to 1p per Avios for the points.  Interest income and interchange and FX fees from foreign usage are unlikely to fill the gap, especially with 2-4-1 vouchers to fund as well.

Given that the BA Amex cards have billings of over £1 billion per month, however, it is a problem that both BA and Amex will need to solve before the current contract expires.

Background

Let’s step back a bit.

Last year, the EU capped the interchange fees charged by Visa and Mastercard at a maximum of 0.3% for personal credit cards.  Fees were previously 0.75% and above.

It claimed, arguably correctly, that the two companies were exploiting their oligopoly on payment processing by charging disproportionate fees, especially as all of the risk was taken by the retailer (in case of charge backs) and the card issuer (in case of bad debts).

In theory, American Express should have nothing to do with this.  Amex is vertically integrated and there is no intermediary sitting between the retailer and Amex who is adding additional fees.  A retailer was free to either work with Amex, paying the fees they requested, or not.

The EU law is badly worded, however. It states (and this is a massive simplification on my part) that personal cards which involve four parties – for Visa, this is the customer, the retailer, the payment processer and the card issuer – must have their interchange fees capped.

American Express Gold and Platinum charge cards, and Platinum cashback cards, clearly only have three parties involved in the process – the customer, the retailer and Amex.  No problem there.  These cards are not and will not be capped.

However, the court has found that, as drafted, a Amex-issued card with a co-brand partner means that there is a fourth person in the relationship.  The BA Amex involves British Airways, American Express, the retailer and the customer.  And if a card has four parties involved, it MUST have its interchange fees capped at 0.3%.

This is the question put to the Advocate General:

“The referring court asks the Court of Justice to clarify whether, in those circumstances, the activities of a three party scheme can be treated as those of a four party scheme, for the purposes of the Regulation in all cases (in other words, it is sufficient that there is a co-branding partner or agent) or only if a co-branding partner or agent is a payment service provider which issues the cards.”

The latter bit – “only if a co-branding partner or agent is a payment service provider which issues the cards” – is what happens when MBNA issues an American Express card.  No-one is doubting that these cards should have their interchange fees capped.

Surely, though, there is a huge difference between MBNA licensing the Amex brand in order to issue a credit card and American Express using the BA brand to sell its own cards?  As the ruling admits:

“[the co-brand partner would] merely provide the three party scheme with access to their customer base”

And:

“Amex and the United Kingdom Government submit that, if the co-branding partner or agent confines its activity to the distribution of cards, technical payment services or simply the processing and retention of data, it does not act as an issuer, so that arrangements for the extension of three party schemes are not covered by Articles 1(5) and 2(18) of the Regulation, which means that they cannot be considered to be the same as four party schemes.”

What is more complex is that American Express doesn’t even charge interchange fees because there is no intermediary.  There are no interchange fees to cap.  Instead, it has to cap its general fee charged to retailers.

To give an example of how this comes down to interpretation of the exact wording of the law:

“In their submission, Articles 1(5) and 2(18) of the Regulation refer to three party schemes which ‘issue [cards] with a co-branding partner’ and which ‘issue [cards] through an agent’. They [Amex et al] contend that the terms ‘with’ and ‘through’ show that the co-branding partner or agent must be involved in the issuing of the card, to which end they rely on the connection between those provisions and other provisions of the Regulation.”

Amex lost:

“In short, Articles 1(5) and 2(18) of the Regulation must be interpreted as meaning that a three party payment card scheme issuing card-based payment instruments with a co-branding partner or through an agent must be classified as a four party payment card scheme, regardless of whether or not the partner or agent is involved in the issuing of cards and/or the acceptance of payments.”

What does this mean for the British Airways American Express and other co-brand Amex cards?

We can’t be sure.  In the short term, nothing, because the existing contract will continue to run.  Unless there are a lot of people paying interest, it is likely that American Express will now be swallowing losses on every transaction on the free British Airways American Express.

The British Airways Premium Plus card, with its £195 fee, looks secure.  I can see how the economics of that card continue to make sense in a world of 0.3% merchant fees.

If we look at what MBNA has just done with the American Airlines credit card, we can see what may happen to the free BA card:

As of last month, the MBNA AA card is £70 per year (previously free)

The Visa card now earns an impressive 1.25 AA miles per £1 (previously 0.75 miles per £1)

There is a 15,000 mile sign-up bonus

There are no incentives for long term spending on the card (a mistake, in my view)

My article on the changes to the AA card is here.

Amex has a strategic problem in the UK

With its fees on co-brand cards capped at the same level as personal Visa and Mastercard products, there should no reason for shops not to accept it.  Amex acceptance could become universal.  This is a great opportunity if the company chooses to embrace it.

Except ….. for that to happen, Amex would have to slash the rate on the Gold and Platinum charge cards and Platinum cashback cards too, even though it doesn’t have to.  Shops won’t welcome Amex with open arms if they know that they will still get legged over if the cardholder pulls out a Preferred Rewards Gold instead of a British Airways Amex.

Shops have this problem with Visa and Mastercard too, to be fair.  They still pay full interchange fees on cards issued outside the EU, on premium cards such as Mastercard World Elite and on business Visa and Mastercards.  In theory shops will be allowed to refuse cards which charge a fee higher than 0.3% but it is very unlikely that they will.  It would require terminals to display the fee after a card is swiped and for the retailer to then decide on the spot whether to continue or refuse the transaction.

How far is Amex willing to bend to protect £1+ billion of monthly billings?  

Good question.  The free British Airways American Express card at 1 Avios per £1 has an earnings rate 3x – 4x higher than the Lloyds Avios Rewards (0.25 Avios per £1, £24 fee) or Tesco Clubcard Mastercard (0.3 Avios per £1 if you convert, free).

Arguably, you could charge £50 per year for the basic BA Amex and would still represent decent value for a high spender if Amex was accepted everywhere.

You can’t just compare it to other Avios cards, however.  There are plenty of cashback Visa and Mastercard products which seem to survive with 0.5% rewards when paid in store vouchers.  At a £50 fee, anyone spending under £10,000 a year on the free BA Amex would be better off dumping it for a free ASDA (or John Lewis, or Amazon) credit card paying 0.5% back in vouchers.

Perhaps the benefits package needs to change

I have been saying for a while that I expect airline status to become available via a credit card in the medium term.

Would you pay £495 for a new British Airways Elite American Express card which came with BA Silver status, potentially with a £20,000 spending threshold?  

Would you pay £195 for the British Airways Premium Plus if the earning rate was cut to 1 Avios per £1 but you also received free British Airways Bronze status?

Or perhaps the driver is tier points and Avios?

Would you spend more on your American Express cards if you also received 1 British Airways tier point for every £50 spent?  

That would give Silver with a £30,000 spend even if you took no flights.

Or perhaps 1 tier point per £100 spent, allowing the top tier of spenders to receive Silver status with £60,000 of purchases?  

That seems too high.  £30,000 may be more likely, unless BA intended these tier points to be a top up rather than the sole way to status.

There will also be more dedicated business credit cards.  Almost no-one knows that there is already a British Airways Corporate American Express card.  This card will not have its interchange fee capped, and it makes sense for American Express to put a lot more marketing effort behind it.

This is the future, I believe.  A future where co-brand partners need to bring more to the table if they want to keep their logo in your wallet as a marketing tool.

For years the airlines and hotels have had it all their own way.  They found a way of placing their logo in a prominent position – on a payment card – where you would see it every day.  And, instead of actually paying for this exposure, they were making money, lots of money, from it.

Those days are gone.   It would be a foolhardy loyalty programme that decided to walk away from such an amazing marketing tool though, even if they have to actually spend money – instead of making money – to achieve it.

Is this the new model?

The IHG Rewards Club Premium Mastercard is the model.  This is a very clever piece of work, and qudos to the IHG and Barclaycard teams who came up with it:

You pay an annual fee of £99, so the card issuer is guaranteed revenue

You receive free Platinum status in IHG Rewards Club, so there is a reason to keep it long term

You earn 2 IHG Rewards Club points per £1, which count towards status – which means that high card spend helps push you towards top-tier Spire Elite 

You get a free night voucher for spending £10,000 per year on the card – which, given it could be worth £250+, you’d be crazy not to aim for

Change ‘IHG Rewards Club’ for ‘British Airways’ in the bullet points above, tweak the numbers and I think you have the model for where we will see the two British Airways American Express cards in a few years time.

You can read the full European Union Advocate General judgement on the American Express co-brand interchange fee case here.


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You qualify for the bonus on these cards even if you have a British Airways American Express card:

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Earning miles and points from small business cards

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Comments (253)

This article is closed to new comments. Feel free to ask your question in the HfP forums.

  • Lewis Watson says:

    Or other option amez just get rid and push gold and platinum cards

    • Andrew says:

      Indeed. This is surely by far the most likely option. They could even be marketed as a de facto BA card and possibly even include a 2for1 if you spent a certain amount and opted in to have your reward points automatically converted to avios

    • Klaus-Peter Dudas says:

      My question is, why would BA continue using Amex for it’s co-branded cards? Surely they could go with someone else and issue a Visa / MC once the contract is up and be accepted everywhere if the revenue generated is the same…

  • Hunter says:

    Apologies as I know this has been mentioned several times, but I just want to be totally clear before taking action…

    My wife and I have both triggered 241 vouchers, so downgraded our BAPP cards to blue ones. I gather however that, despite what AMEX CS often tell customers, our vouchers can’t be cancelled even if we now close our accounts. Is that definitely correct? Has anyone ever had their 241 cancelled?

    Am I also right in thinking that when redeeming a 241, an AMEX needs to be used to pay the taxes, but doesn’t need to be a BA card i.e. Gold card would be ok?

    Many thanks

    • Genghis says:

      Any Amex (including those issued by MBNA, Lloyds) can be used to pay taxes.
      99.9999% certain voucher won’t be removed upon closure.
      I read about one person on FT who had voucher removed. That is all.

      • Alex W says:

        By those maths you’ve read a million reports on FT then?? 😉

      • Rob says:

        And I am dubious about that one as BA often gets things ‘planted’ on FT. No HFP reader has ever had a voucher removed.

        • Aeronaut says:

          “… as BA often gets things ‘planted’ on FT… ”

          Really? News/rumours I can understand, but do they really plant ‘cautionary tales’ too?

          • Rob says:

            Perhaps, perhaps not! FT BA is a little odd …. one of the mods randomly started a poll this week on whether BOB was making you fly BA less. Why? There was no logic or explanation, and FT never does reader polls inside forums ….

            We then have the poster who is randomly present at every route launch and lounge opening to give a glowing report and the one who live-blogged the BA press day event because he was invited as a high-value customer …… except it was 100% BA and press as far as Anika could tell (only 40 invitees) ….

  • Ah says:

    Maybe Amex will punt it out to MBNA if they are not making any money from it.
    I like the virgin miles system of having a visa & amex to collect miles. I am only a leisurely collector of miles though.

    Kind of stumped with BA Card when places dont take Amex. Im not one who likes a ton of plastic from various issuers.

    I buy a lot from screwfix & the B&Q group do not take Amex.
    my way around it atm is to click & collect & pay via paypal.

    • Genghis says:

      All I have currently in my card type wallet is:

      One Amex (currently SPG, thanks for referral Rob)
      IHG Black
      Curve
      Debit card
      (Driving licence, season ticket and one business card and a crisp folded £20)

      You don’t need to carry loads of stuff around.

      • TigerTanaka says:

        I hate a wallet full of cards but I can’t get any lower than:

        BA Amex
        AA Visa (for places that don’t take Amex)
        Post Office MC (overseas spend)
        Debit card (cash withdrawals)
        Company issued credit card
        BA Silver card
        KLM Gold card
        Heathrow Rwards card
        Swipe card for my office/car park
        Swipe card for head office

        I am overseas every other week which does not help but I wish airlines would embrace Apple Wallet for status cards so I could lose some plastic!

        • Reddot says:

          I have never had to show my status card all these years. For Heathrow Reward, I always just read them the number saved on my phone. If iPhone, Apple wallet also lets you save virtual cards to it.

        • UK_Ship says:

          Heathrow rewards now has the card on the app which the retailers can just scan

        • Duncan says:

          I think the BA App gives you a virtual membership card. Or is there some other reason you need a physical card?

          I don’t travel enough to bother with it, but I had the Heathrow Rewards card in Apple Wallet, which they just read the number off of.

          If you had a Curve card you could potentially put the AA Visa and company credit card (if they allowed it) in there and use that for the odd ATM withdrawal.

          I’m in the same boat with an overflowing wallet. It’s hard to minimise it. If only everyone accepted Apple Pay for any value. Increasing common, but high value Amex Apple Pay transactions (> £30) are still very poorly supported.

        • John says:

          Can’t you have a home wallet and a travel wallet? That’s what I do, there is basically no overlap between them (unless I am doing something in London before heading to the airport)

          • Steve says:

            That is exactly what I do.

            Overseas spend cards, EHIC cards – all travel related cards go in one wallet. All UK related cards go in my other one.

            The only cards I need to swap over is my driving license (if hiring a car) and Amex Gold card.

          • AndyGWP says:

            I do that too 🙂 – so much easier… I usually just swap them over in my suitcase when I get on the plane / reach my destination, and like Steve, shift my driving licence card over

          • TigerTanaka says:

            Good call on the Heathrow Rewards card, now in my apple wallet..

            I know I can have a virtual card on the BA app but I like apple wallet, it’s so simple to use. Certain contract lounges demand a physical card for KLM which is annoying.

            Binned curve after the Amex fiasco.

            As for the home/abroad wallet, I am not sufficiently organised to manage that and would end up in a foreign country trying to hire a car with no driving license!

          • Stuart says:

            You sound ridiculous- no offence

          • Alan says:

            Really? Pretty common concept having a separate travel wallet…

      • Optimus Prime says:

        @Genghis,

        When churning Amex, do you keep it after triggering signup bonus until your other half is eligible for the bonus too?

        For example my wife did did refer me for Amex Plat and then she cancelled her Gold. We’ve triggered the Plat bonus but now I have to wait until end of October before she’s eligible. If I don’t keep mine I won’t get the 18k MR from the referral.

        Do fellow HfP readers keep the card in this case or just forget about the referral bonus and save the pro-rata fee?

        • Genghis says:

          I do quick consecutive churns. Let me explain.

          Week 1 I sign up for Amex Plat and spend £2k. Week 2/3, refer wife and spend £2k, yielding in total 92k MRs. I’ve just done this at a cost of just under £21 in fees (charged £450 on first card and then refunded prorata but nothing on second card). This can be repeated in 6 months’ time for a total of say 184k MRs in a year.

          The alternative would be to do constant referrals, each keeping the card for 6 months. This works out at approx (35+18) * 2 = 106k MRs and you’re charged c. £450 (plus a few extra quid for the overlap time). In summary, fewer points and more expensive.

          Obviously the maths works out differently on an Amex Gold which would be free but you’d still yield fewer points.

          • Duncan says:

            Do Amex say anything when you call to cancel after 2 weeks? How do you shift out the MR points quickly enough?

            I’d feel weird / awkward calling after two weeks and cancelling a card. It would feel totally transparent to the agent what was going on. Perhaps they don’t care, but I’d feel like a scammer.

            But also… 92k MR points… that’s appealing. Do you get to keep any of the other Plat benefits after cancelling?

          • Genghis says:

            Nothing. Set up transfer partner when you get the card. Once you have all the points, transfer out. Easy. My SPG transfer from mine and Mrs G’s cards this time completed in 1 day (and for Mrs G that was over the weekend).
            Once cancel, you keep the hotel status benefits (which you apply for / update when you get the card) and keep the Eurostar lounge access.

          • Genghis says:

            Does it feel like a scam? Perhaps. But we spend prob around £40-50k a year with Amex.

          • Tim says:

            Hey Genghis

            A quick thank you is due to you as you add extra value to HFP… 😉

            Like Duncan I feel weird / awkward doing the churn thing, I’m also very keen that I don’t take the mickey to the extent that I get booted off! However, I just checked and in 2016 I put through £129,000 of (95%) business spend mostly on BAPP but some on a GCC.

            Is there a churning strategy that one should follow for high spenders to maximise the points BUT staying in the good books of Amex? I’d like to make the most of it but want to be fair and not come a cropper… I assume at worst Amex would just deny an application or bonus points as opposed to anything more severe.

            It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of other on this… and maybe it’s a good article idea for Rob – easy for me to say of course!!

          • Genghis says:

            No thank you required. I get a lot out of HfP too so only right I give back.

            If you’re not comfortable with the quick churn method I mention above, how about the “slow churn” method that @Optimus Prime alludes to.

            Current situation. Spend £129k on BAPP and get 193,500 avios and a 241. Cost £195.

            Proposal. Spend £129k on two BAPPs which you hold for six months and then your partner for six months. Get the 193,500 avios as before plus also (26k + 9k) x 2 = 70k from the churning activity. Cost is now just over £195 given a slight overlap period.

          • Genghis says:

            And of course two 241 vouchers…

          • Duncan says:

            Genghis: That’s fair. It just feels uncomfortable to have that conversation. We put c. £60k through last year, so not as high as many but still business Amex would want I imagine. Thanks again for the info/advice

            Tim: As a BAPP holder, I think my strategy would be to keep that card and only churn Gold or Plat cards to ensure I maintain at least one long-term card and relationship with Amex. I think Rob has said an article on churning won’t happen because of his relationship with Amex and not wanting to encourage something that they ideally don’t want.

          • Genghis says:

            Bear in mind you can also cancel through secure message.

          • Tim says:

            Thanks for the input guys… I think bottom line is that it would be silly for me not to try a churn, I need to cancel my GCC anyway, although I think I’ll have to wait 6 months to get another bonus, or refer my wife – although she may not pass the income criteria.

            The Plat/Gold cards might be better for us, we’re a family of 3 so the second 2-4-1 is of little use, 1 per year is ample. Of course the higher earning rate of the BAPP appeals. For each spend target I need to meet on Plat/Gold I’m leaving 50% of points on the table but I guess that’s dwarfed by the actual bonus gained.

            Time for action!

          • Pangolin says:

            The thing that stops me cancelling the Amex Plat is that it includes Priority Pass Select (i.e. with the ability to +1) and without it I would definitely still be paying for the most expensive version of Priority Pass anyway (which doesn’t include +1). I don’t generally fly BA but a bunch of airlines (including LCCs) and as I make lots of short haul trips in Eco class the only way I’m going to get lounge access is through Priority Pass.

            Also, the Amex Platinum gives excellent travel insurance and coverage on rental car hire (which saved me £300 after getting my Korean rental car pranged).

            With those and the guaranteed hotel statuses, for me the card just about pays itself off.

          • AndyGWP says:

            My only concern is that by both performing and promoting this sort of extreme behavior (sign up, close after a few weeks), could drive card companies to no longer permitting it. I am aware it’s a drop in the ocean for the companies, but it is entirely feasible that someone picks up on a proportion of people exploiting the card and referral system, which thereby means they are losing money, and before you know it either pro-rata refunds disappear, or the ability to re-earn a bonus goes.

            I do churn, i’ll hold my hands up, but I think we have to be careful of taking it to extremes.

          • Rob says:

            Which is why I don’t write about it.

          • Genghis says:

            @AndyGWP It is perhaps a tragedy of the commons type situation…

          • Ro says:

            just wanna big up pangolin for using the word “pranged”.
            you the real MVP

          • Alan says:

            @Tim/Duncan – remember you can also send an online secure message to Amex CS to cancel if you feel weird calling them. I find it nice and quick too – did it for BAPP, got back standard text re losing voucher but unsurprisingly it is still in my BAEC a/c 😉

          • Polly says:

            Like Genghis,
            We are bit more cautious, keep to the 8 mth rule, so every year we both have a plat referral and bonus, plus a BAPP referral and bonus, but dropping down to BACC as soon as the 241 is banked. It is never cancelled when we change BAPP cards either. So yes we keep the plat and get a 4/12 pro rata refund, but do manage l think, the same no of avios as you Genghis. Plus spend….Also we put annual 60K plus through Amex, so they do ok out of us.
            Currently doing battle with HSBC re elite master card, whether to drop down or not.

    • N says:

      A real faff doing that!

      Toolstation take amex

      • Nick says:

        Yep. As does wickes. And you can pay by Amex via PayPal for screwfix delivery and collection items.

        The fact that wickes takes Amex means I never use b&q. Most builders merchants I’ve been to take Amex too. I’ve put over £50k of building stuff across my Amex in the last two years.

        • mark2 says:

          Travis Perkins and Grahams also take Amex

        • Nick M says:

          Don’t forget that you can get 3% rewards with Black Curve at B&Q (+ underlying card points)

        • Polly says:

          If you must use B and Q, then buy their gift cards in tesco or morrisons, at least you get to pay with Amex that way….and get the odd £5 back in morrisons vouchers. …

    • mark2 says:

      You can buy B&Q gift cards from Tesco, Morrison’s etc. With a Morrison’s More card you get about 2.5% cash back on cards.

      • Mr Dee says:

        Morrisons had introduced a £100 per transaction limit on gift cards and it now takes ages to get a substantial amount in one go

    • Grimz says:

      Buy giftcards from a supermarket for B+Q and pay with paypal for Screwfix is a way to use Amex for these retailers. I have made a load of morrisons points this way

  • Joe says:

    “Or perhaps 1 tier point per £10 spent, allowing the top tier of spenders to receive Silver status with £60,000 of purchases?”

    £60,000 spend (@ 1TP/£10) = 6,000 tier points (Silver Status only requires 600 tier points).

    Or am I getting confused?

  • Vinz says:

    I would pay £495 for the elite card if it came with silver status.

    • John says:

      Really? Why? Wouldn’t you be better off just buying your own food or do you never pay for any flights, always travel with 3x23kg bags and actually value seat selection at the ridiculous prices BA charges for non-status?

  • Patrick says:

    Yhere us another errir in the article as if I remember correctly the EU did not impose 0.3%, but a 0.8% with the ability to go below that on a per country basis and the UK wanted to reduce prices for consumers.
    I agree though as well that the actual terminals are probably the biggest expense.
    From en EU perspective the idea was more to improve credit card acceptability in the other member states and reduce extra fees charged to consumers for paying by credit card

    • Rob says:

      No, it is 0.3% – the judgement makes that clear (and 0.2% for debit cards).

  • RichT says:

    I think you mean kudos to the teams at Creation for the new IHG card… As obviously they switched because the Barclaycard team weren’t up to the job!

    • Neil says:

      Beat me to it!

    • Nick says:

      But the creation deal matches the barclaycard deal – they ‘invented’ it.

    • Isolde200 says:

      I think that the original benefits and costs (£99; Platinum Status; Tier earning spend) were created by Barclaycard and almost “cut and pasted” to the new Creation card when Barclays lost the contract.

      • Alan says:

        Yep, only change they made was issuing voucher at end of 12 months, rather than on hitting £10k spend. Sensible move on their part as I’ve put £20k through in a year – wish you got a 2nd voucher for hitting £10k twice though! Happy for the voucher to only be issued now though as didn’t have use for it earlier.

  • Han says:

    O/T

    Hi All!! Sorry I just want to make sure this is a good Avios redemption versus cash price ticket. For an Economy BA return trip to Brazil from London it costs £896.17 cash (with the paltry option of £180 off for 33,000 Avios) OR £356.17 + 39,000 Avios: would you agree that the Avios amount plus taxes are justified?!

    Thank you!!

    • New Card says:

      Getting £540 of value for 39,000 avios there = 1.38p of value per avios. Not the best redemption ever, but not bad at all.

      • the real harry1 says:

        it’s OK – but ask yourself how easy/ hard it was to collect the Avios

        I would be looking at the other pricing options on an Avios redemption, eg you’ve also got 13700 Avios plus £543.17

        you are effectively conserving your Avios by ‘buying’ 25300 Avios for £190
        =0.75p/ Avios

        • the real harry1 says:

          this also means you are getting £353 of value from your 13700 Avios
          = 2.58p/ Avios – rather good

      • pauldb says:

        BA aren’t allowed to charge YQ on booking ex-Brazil. Book it as 2 one-ways and you’ll find the fees are £221 for the outbound and £27 for the inbound.
        You might also consider booking a partner flight outbound for similar reason. TAM FRA-GRU is 30k+£75 oneway, or IB MAD-GRU is 21k+£68 (if you can book through IB+).

        • Klaus-Peter Dudas says:

          I wish the EU (or at least the UK) would ban YQ… YQ is such a scam.

          • Pangolin says:

            Never going to happen…. and the LH behemoth that is dominant in the EU is the worst of all when it comes to YQ.

        • Han says:

          Oh wow interesting – never knew that re. YQ!! So I’ll def book it as two one ways, as we want to fly into Sao Paolo, then out of Rio.

          Good call on booking a partner flight with TAM/IB too – thank you!!

          • pauldb says:

            You’re welcome. You should also consider the avios+money options which are typically more generous/reasonable on Y travel. On the BA return the extremes are 19.5k+£27 or 6850+£122. So you can buy back 12,650 avios for £95 = 0.75p each, or put a higher value on the 6850 if that’s how you want to look at it. For a return (as 2 one ways) 13700 avios + £438 definitely beats £896. 3.34p/avios.

          • Alan says:

            Yep, same for ex-HKG. Only issue if trying to use a 241 voucher you have to depart from the UK and thus do as a return and get hit by YQ.

        • Han says:

          @ Pauldb

          Random or perhaps I’ve missed something as the BA return inbound is now 19,500 Avios + £158.80 – and not the £27 you nicely brought to my attention. Have they suddenly changed this?! The outbound one way remains the same at 19,500 Avios + £223.97 (its gone up a few extra GBP due to FX changes) … I called them and they said they don’t add YQ to these fares?!

      • Han says:

        Thanks!!

    • N says:

      Sounds OK.

      General thought is that 1 Avios = 1p

      £896.17
      vs
      £356.17 + 39,000 Avios =
      £356.17 + £390 =
      £746.17

    • Alex W says:

      You should compare the cash price of a non-BA airline for the same trip.
      Also worth factoring in that full redemptions earn no Avios or tier points. If you part pay with Avios instead you do earn rewards on the flight. If you’ve got status you could earn quite a few even in economy.

      • Han says:

        Hi! Yes I’m Gold with BA and I compared doing part pay with Avios – it didn’t appear lucrative whatsoever, even with gaining more Avios and tier points.

        Cheapest cash price for Non BA was Swiss at £587 with a 38 hour stop over outbound!!

    • John says:

      Well firstly you need to consider if you are happy paying £900. If yes, then you are actually getting the 1.38p of value others have stated.

      I wouldn’t pay £900 except in an emergency, so I wouldn’t buy this flight. As I value avios at 0.6p, your avios & fees price works out to be £590, which is a price I am happy to pay.

      • Han says:

        Agreed. Not really prepared to pay £900 for a World Traveller seat, hence wanting to redeem Avios; but I thought the price wasn’t so bad. Thank you!!

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