A BA Amex 241 companion voucher question I can’t answer – any takers?

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• BJ says:

  18 Apr18 April 07:57

  Given that BA CSA seem to be universally clued-up and relaxed about the ‘policy’ and practice of tagging on returns both via the call or online then call routes when seats become available, it would seem that they should be equally relaxed about tagging on an outbound where a return is already booked. I suggest the three readers in question all call and ask and report back on their enquiries.

  • Rob says:

    18 Apr18 April 08:30

    Doesn’t help if the agent has never actually done it before.

    The reason people asked me is that they didn’t want to be stuck with a return they couldn’t amend with paying the £70 cancellation fee.

    • AJA says:

      18 Apr18 April 08:53

      I can see that Rob but someone must ask BA initially as it is they who need to issue the ticket. We can merely speculate, we cannot answer definitively unless we’ve actually stuck our heads above the parapet and tried it ourselves by asking BA.

      That said it seems from at least one other post somebody has actually asked BA and got a positive response.

      • Mike says:

        18 Apr18 April 10:33

        Rob can’t you just submit a formal RFI to BA with the question rather than crowd sourcing the answer ?

        • Rob says:

          18 Apr18 April 10:52

          You clearly have no experience of getting usable information out of big companies 🙂

          If I thought there was a cat in hells chance of getting a reliable answer which all call centre agents would also agree was doable, I would have.

          Perhaps tomorrow I’ll ring Amex and ask what happens to your 241 voucher if you cancel your BA Amex, and whether you need to keep the card to pay the taxes when you redeem ….

        • meta says:

          18 Apr18 April 11:02

          They can test it within 24hrs cooling off period, so no need to pay the £70 cancellation fee. But I think it would be possible to do so, but not without risks. The way it sometimes works when you call to add a leg, is that some agents process it as cancel and rebook the whole ticket. Other agents process it as grab the seats for full price Avios then return the half.

        • meta says:

          18 Apr18 April 11:03

          I said not with out risks because in the first option the seats might not go back into the inventory.

        • BJ says:

          18 Apr18 April 14:05

          I’m not sure the risks that @Meta refers to are that high, I’ve never had it happen to me and I only recall one comment from a reader falling foul of this. Presently, I think the risks of failing to exercise 24h cancellation rights due to phone lines, IT issues etc would be a bigger worry.

    • BJ says:

      18 Apr18 April 09:45

      Yup, reason they ask is obvious, most HfP readers are very protective of their £ although I myself have lost count of the number of £35 fees I’ve paid over the years, simply perceiving them as a trivial cost of fantastic flexibility 🙂

      I am inclined to disagree, I don’t think the CSA needs to have done it before. I would give them more credit than that. On the whole I have found them to be very knowledgeable and proactively supportive on the BAEC team, many becoming obtuse only in matters of EU261 and the like. I just don’t see BAEC making a song and dance over this as it generates bookings and makes no material difference which order the sectors are added provided the CSA prices it correctly. Noted comment from AJA, hopefully answer will be quite clear by the end of the day.

• Qrfan says:

  18 Apr18 April 08:02

  If you do this, be bloody sure to check that your booking is ticketed for all legs as the travel date approaches. You can see the ticket number in the app. If you see a dash where the ticket number should be, call ba and hassle them. With the amount of faffing and tax recalculation involved there is every chance someone at ba forgets to take an extra payment and your booking will be useless when your arrive at the airport. Very stressful experience.

• FlyingPtarmigan says:

  18 Apr18 April 08:21

  @ Rob – I’ve done this.

  We booked economy LHR -> Male as no Avios availability.

  BA opened up a load of return availability, but no outbound and I booked using a 2-4-1 on BA.com.

  Outbound became available a month later and I booked on BA.com as two tickets; phoned the Gold line and they happily applied the voucher to the outbound ticket and refunded the Avios.

  No additional taxes charged and none refunded. Each leg kept their separate PNRs and booking codes.

  • Rob says:

    18 Apr18 April 08:28

    Thanks. I thought that route would work.

    Snag is that you can’t do this for US flights due to the crazy taxes on one-way inbounds.

    • Sav says:

      18 Apr18 April 08:51

      Rob, I’m moving to the US in the summer and have 3 241 vouchers in the bank. Does this mean I can’t use them due to “the crazy taxes on US on one way inbounds”?

      • AJA says:

        18 Apr18 April 08:56

        You can still use them but be prepared to pay a lot in TFCs. But depending on the voucher remember your journey has to start in the UK so you’ll be booking UK-USA-UK itineraries anyway.

      • Bonglim says:

        18 Apr18 April 09:18

        You should have a look and ‘try’ to dummy book and avois flight USA base, – London as a return – the taxes and fees are way too high.

        If you are a regular traveller back and forth – you would be better booking your moving flight as a return with the return a year down the line, then each time you fly back to the uk – pay 35 to change the return – then use another 241 voucher to book your return flight to the USA as outbound- and another USA-UK flight for way down the line – which again can be adjusted.

        I think that would work?

        Also. your older 241 vouchers might only work for flights originating from the UK anyway.

      • Rob says:

        18 Apr18 April 09:48

        You can use them, of course, but tax will be around $1700 return IIRC.

      • BJ says:

        18 Apr18 April 19:19

        Only new-style vouchers can be used for departures exUSA and I am guessing most of yours are probably old-style. However, if you have some new-style consider flights exGIG, what you save on crazy fees will pay for a nice little break in Rio. Remember too that you can do GIG-LHR (stopover) -XXX…

• JDB says:

  18 Apr18 April 08:37

  Another question, if you use the new 241 ex EU – say AMS-LHR-LAX, do you have UK261 rights or EC261 ones that need to be enforced via local arbitration/courts if BA doesn’t accept a claim? While each individual flight should be covered under UK261, are the overall journey rights enforceable in the UK?

  • AJA says:

    18 Apr18 April 08:45

    I think it would still have UK261 rights since you are flying both into and out of the UK on BA. But you additionally would also have EC261 rights as its an ex-EU departure from AMS in your example. So you could choose where to enforce your rights.

    • JDB says:

      18 Apr18 April 08:55

      I don’t think that’s what the wording says, but I may well be wrong. As I say, each individual flight is in scope but your overall journey (even if via London and a UK carrier) so from an EU country to a third country. A recent example on here was a trip DUB-LHR-DFW where the pax original flight from Dublin was cancelled and he was rebooked over an hour earlier, arriving DFW same time. That should entitle you to €600 compensation based on a recent European decision (post Brexit) but I don’t see how you could enforce that in the UK if BA refused.

      The DUB-LHR flight on its own is covered but wouldn’t give you the €600 owing to the distance, there is no UK precedent re the bringing forward of flights and BA will say the court doesn’t have jurisdiction etc. Matters less here than for say rerouting rights on far ahead cancellations where BA isn’t very co-operative. Might be OK to enforce in Ireland, but in France???

      • AJA says:

        18 Apr18 April 09:04

        But in your example the itinerary is DUB to LAX on one PNR, it just happens to be via LHR. EC261 applies to all journeys departing the EU so if a problem on the first sector causes an issue the whole itinerary needs to be considered. The issue in DUB still had potential to impact the LHR-LAX sector. If the pax was unable to depart earlier they may have got a later flight which missed the connection in LHR and then BA would have been on the hook for arrival at destination over 3 hours late.

        The only way that BA could disregard the LAX flight is if DUB-LHR was on a separate ticket to LHR-LAX.

        • AJA says:

          18 Apr18 April 09:05

          Sorry DFW not LAX

        • JDB says:

          18 Apr18 April 09:08

          Yes, of course you retain EC261 rights, but my point is that if BA refuses to pay citing ‘exceptional circumstances’ or whatever, I don’t think you would be able to take them to MCOL or CEDR in the UK as the court would not have jurisdiction. You would have to enforce in the EU?? I don’t know this for sure, but it seems logical and if it is right, adds another complicating layer to ex-EU trips.

      • AJA says:

        18 Apr18 April 09:19

        I think the key factors in deciding where or which 261 regulations (ie EU or UK) to apply is (1) whole itinerary and (2) operating airline and (3) does the itinerary involve UK airport.

        If separate tickets then does issue involve either arrive or depart UK, if so the UK261 applies if inbound is a UK airline, if not EC261.

        If one itinerary via UK or on a UK airline then UK261 applies, if EU airline then can also choose EC261, if ex-EU departure on non-airline then EC261, if ex-UK on non-EU/UK airline then UK261. If arrival into UK or EU on non-EU/UK then outside scope.

        • JDB says:

          18 Apr18 April 09:25

          This is the actual UK wording which I don’t think covers things in the way you suggest for a whole journey from EU to EU or third country.

          “(b) for point (b) substitute—
          “(b)
          to passengers departing from an airport located in a country other than the United Kingdom to an airport situated in—
          (i) the United Kingdom if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier or a UK air carrier; or
          (ii) the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a UK air carrier,
          unless the passengers received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that other country.”;”

        • AJA says:

          18 Apr18 April 09:44

          I think the only time you might have an issue is travelling on a non-EU airline departing the EU.

          But if the itinerary touches the UK then UK261 comes into play.

          If you travel on BA you can enforce UK261 regardless as it is based in the UK. The only time you might have an issue with BA is if the sector that causes an issue is on another OW airline (BA codeshare) but outside the EU or UK.

          Even then i think youd be ok. There is a case over on FT where BA paid out last month because it failed to issue a ticket on an AA flight from Costa-Rica to MIA which caused them to miss their MIA-LHR flight.

        • JDB says:

          18 Apr18 April 09:51

          @AJA I hope you are right! But it isn’t what the wording says and having UK rights on the individual flights isn’t as good as having them for the whole and I don’t think you could pick and choose/have both. The Costa Rica via Miami to UK would be covered because it is a whole trip, Costa Rica to the UK. If you were continuing to Rome? Not so sure “touching the UK” is provided for. Time will tell, but when I read the text of the legislation, I think BA will push back and say go and enforce elsewhere.

        • meta says:

          18 Apr18 April 11:06

          I think there is a case law in this. Can’t dig it up at the moment, but you can bring up a case in another country based on longest flight concept.

  • JDB says:

    18 Apr18 April 12:50

    @meta that may have been the case pre Brexit, but I’m not sure that you could bring a case under EC261 now in a UK court and getting a judge here to apply post Brexit EU decisions (like the early departure one you posted recently) is a tall order.

• AJA says:

  18 Apr18 April 08:38

  I assumed the point of this was to allow you to book itineraries starting outside the UK eg OSL-LHR-SIN-LHR or even Osl-LHR-SIN–LHR-CDG. Just to give more flexibility to using the voucher.

  But I had assumed that it required the outbound to be booked before the return. It had never occurred to me to try booking the return before the outbound.

  It seems from the replies at least one person has managed to do this though so I guess it is possible.

  Is that possible with a cash ticket (other than as two separate one way tickets) If so I don’t see why it can’t be done with Avios and a 2-4-1.

• PeterK says:

  18 Apr18 April 08:41

  Last week, when we added a return flight to an original one way ex U.K. booking, the original booking was cancelled by the agent and rebooked as a return. A credit of the original Avios was made to our account then we were immediately debited the higher amount of Avios for the new return trip. Presumably an agent could do the same if it’s less complicated a than adding an outbound leg?

  • Alex W says:

    18 Apr18 April 09:41

    Only if there are additional seats available. It’s not guaranteed that reward seats are still available to book after being cancelled.

• Giles Ahern says:

  18 Apr18 April 09:23

  I took this issue a step further.
  I recently booked two seats from SIN to LHR using Avios. I did that online at midnight UK time when the seats opened up. I called BA UK customer services eight hours later. It took a bit of explaining but I added an outbound LHR to DXB flight and applied an old style 2-4-1 AMEX voucher to both legs. I was charged taxes for two single legs (for two passengers) rather than a return journey, which was more than for a return, but given the limited availability of SIN-LHR Avios seats I felt I had done OK.

• vol says:

  18 Apr18 April 09:28

  OT – Amex MR offer – spend £500 in Zegna, get 10,000 membership reward points 😀

  • Mike says:

    18 Apr18 April 10:37

    OT – spend £500 in Zegna look like a Russian oligarch

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