Stuffed #1: How British Airways sharply devalued Avios for members outside the UK and US

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• iain says:

  9 Dec9 December 07:28

  I have a booking with a 2 4 1 from Dublin to via LHR NY in September i paid 1300000 Avios and £587, ( was better than the 100000 and £1700 for the option from Belfast ) looked at it again today and its now 190,000 Avios. and £587. WOW!

  • Tazzy says:

    9 Dec9 December 09:21

    I’m in Belfast and am gutted at these changes as the Dublin route has lost its benefits

    • Mark says:

      9 Dec9 December 09:59

      Surely if your account is registered to a Belfast address (and assuming you have earned or spent at least 1 avios in the past year) you have access to the RFS pricing?

  • Mark says:

    9 Dec9 December 09:59

    1.3M avios? Wow! 🙂

• James says:

  9 Dec9 December 07:30

  I’m sorry but how are these massive Avios requirements in any way attainable anymore? Even I’m sitting on a pile after CC sign ups and the Barclays account etc but that pile is only 170k and after pretty much one long haul redemption (or one for two people with a voucher) that’ll disappear.

  Beyond that, earning 160k Avios using yge JFK example will require over £100k credit card spend. Or an inordinately large number of flights. And soon the earning amount from those is expected to decrease. How on earth are we meant to attain this level of points without years of spending? The redemptions feel like they’re hardly worth it anymore. Club Europe is crap, the seats are identical and the lounges often don’t exist for the return leg plus the £5ish value meal each way isn’t that great. And club world is still dominated by the ancient ying yang seats and again hardly feels like an incredible treat for all our loyalty and spending.

  • Rob says:

    9 Dec9 December 07:32

    This is the point I made in the original article on this. BA is obsessed with showing low tax numbers but it is high Avios numbers that are a bigger deterrent.

    • JDB says:

      9 Dec9 December 07:49

      But Barclays and Amex have been printing Avios like crazy all year which easily makes up for a great many redemptions increases if applicable. For our small
      household account alone, assuming Barclays pays the 100k, that will make an unexpected bonus of over 500k Avios in the 12 months to March. That, plus the ability now to use 241 on IB/EI makes all these changes at worst neutral for a UK based passenger.

      • James says:

        9 Dec9 December 08:06

        That’s fair but these large hauls of Avios are likely one offs. No new credit cards competing for BA’s Amex products have been launched for years so the 100k Avios for both Barclays products is great but it’s hardly like the vast majority of people will collect that annually. And there is close to zero chance BA will reduce Avios requirements or reduce the taxes once fuel costs and airline demand reduce to pre-war and Covid levels.

        • JAXBA says:

          9 Dec9 December 13:44

          They’re not one-offs in the US, where we have the choice of BA, EI, & IB credit cards from Chase, with sign up bonuses of up to 100k each. With carefully timed opening/closing of credit cards, US collectors can easily earn 100k+ Avios a year – and even better in 2 player mode with a partner and a household account. I just opened the EI card…

          Then there’s the other US cards that earn a lot of points that can easily convert to Avios, sometimes with little to no loss of value…

      • AJA says:

        9 Dec9 December 08:07

        @JDB how did you get 400k Avios from Amex? It may be possible to do if you have 4 working members in your household account each eligible for a SUB but I can’t see how you’ll earn another 400k Avios in 2023.

        You make it sound like everyone has had the opportunity to earn 500k this year from credit card give aways. That’s simply not true. Not everyone is in the same position as you.

        • JDB says:

          9 Dec9 December 09:05

          @AJA I didn’t say I got 400k from Amex! We don’t churn cards, although my wife upgraded from Gold to Plat for the 40k SUB. I was referring to the greatly increased SUBs / referrals that people refer to here all the time as well as all the other proper or improper tricks. As the Bank of England has belatedly discovered, keep printing money and at some point you will get bad inflation and devaluation of the currency.

    • AJA says:

      9 Dec9 December 08:01

      Actually it’s both high taxes and high avios that are off-putting. I think paying £800 in cash on top of 100k Avios cannot ever be described as rewarding given how long it takes to accumulate the Avios plus £800 is not peanuts.

      Now it’s even worse. Even for UK based customers the headline of 160k Avios plus £350 in cash works out as a devaluation We still need to accumulate the Avios and that takes time if you don’t fly regularly for work and don’t qualify for a credit card sign up bonus because Barclays won’t let you hold the Avios card at the same time as the Hilton product and Amex won’t give a SUB if you already hold a personal Amex. And with spend based Avios earning coming in even the incentive to fly on a cash ticket disappears because I’m not rich enough to pay for a fully flexible ticket especially as I don’t need to be that flexible when booking a flight for my holiday – my dates when booking a holiday are generally fixed when I book, I don’t need to change the flight unless its an emergency.

      Plus spending Avios doesn’t seem worthwhile especially as reward seats seem to be the ones that are downgraded or cancelled by BA at the last minute.

      BA is obviously in trouble – it has too many people holding large sums of Avios who aren’t spending them on flights but converting to Nectar. It also has a hard product that is still not fully rolled out. It has fewer customers flying. It has fewer aircraft so has cut routes. It also has trouble flying east because of the situation in Ukraine and no flying over Russia. And now the economic headwinds are causing even more headaches. But it also charges ridiculous amounts for cash fares so that’s putting people off. Plus there’s the climate change challenges and those who would prefer not to see anyone fly anywhere.

      • James says:

        9 Dec9 December 08:09

        Are their fares really putting people off though? They’re flying full A380s to Dubai daily charging £1000’s return for the old club seat and economy prices are often more than emirates. The general public seem to have a strong loyalty plus are happy to pay the required prices. I don’t think they’re in much trouble from that perspective.

        • AJA says:

          9 Dec9 December 08:18

          But how many flights are they putting on these days? It may be that the few flights operating are full. But they used to have several flights a day. Now with fewer aircraft they can’t fly so frequently. The revenue may be up from charging 1000s for economy and telephone numbers for Club but the number of passengers is still below pre-pandemic levels. I can’t see that being sustained when the economic headwinds start blowing.

      • JDB says:

        9 Dec9 December 08:14

        Have a look at BAs/IAGs financial reports which give a very different picture in respect of the various assertions you make. The outlook is still very positive (of course that may change) and cash generation currently exceptionally strong. The Nectar issue is a bit of a red herring – it’s wholly insignificant in the context of the group. Sainsbury only has a 15% market share and there’s a limit to what people might wish to spend at eBay/Argos; Nectar is just of zero interest to vast numbers of Avios collectors.

        • AJA says:

          9 Dec9 December 08:27

          @,JDB please explain how you expect to earn another bonus 500k Avios next year.

          Also how many long haul aircraft is BA flying compared to pre-pandemic and the 747 retirements. Plus how many routes have been culled. Plus how many routes have seen fewer flights per day.

          BA may currently be generating lots of cash but how much will it continue to generate going forwards. It can continue to charge expensive fares in January and February but how many people will be buying?

        • JDB says:

          9 Dec9 December 08:45

          At @AJA, I probably won’t earn the 500k bonus next years unless another bonkers offer appears from a new provider, but those extra Avios will cover the cost of any devaluation for some years while I continue to earn the same underlying ones. What’s more important to BA is the profitability of operations and not the number of aircraft flying. Culled routes were not the money makers; that’s why they were culled. Load factors are high, fares are high, costs reduced with new cabin crew deal, capacity constrained by new aircraft deliveries. The forward visibility goes way beyond just Jan/Feb. Inbound tourism will likely remain strong. While I appreciate what BA is doing doesn’t suit you and certain HfP readers like to rubbish BA and claim Nectar is the only way to go, my point is simply that there is a bigger picture (that can be ascertained from huge amounts of published data) than a few personal sentiments.

      • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

        9 Dec9 December 08:21

        BA isn’t in trouble and nor are large numbers of people moving avios over to nectar.

        Sure it seems like a lot of HfP readers are doing that but in the scheme of things the number of HfP readers as a % of BAEC members isn’t that large.

        • dougzz99 says:

          9 Dec9 December 11:04

          Why did they devalue the Nectar option if it wasn’t a large number?

      • Swifty says:

        9 Dec9 December 14:22

        Completely agree with all that. Yeah put me right off. This is a PITA and it’s getting worse. When is the time spent thinking about this not worth it anymore

    • James says:

      9 Dec9 December 08:02

      Thanks. HFP seem to have more sway to lobby Virgin Atlantic to help improve their offering but far less with BA. Don’t they need a blindingly obvious reality check from those most familiar with airline and CC loyalty schemes to show this is nonsensical?

  • G says:

    9 Dec9 December 07:46

    You can always buy IAG’s avios subscription…

    • Roy says:

      9 Dec9 December 10:07

      Exactly. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that they just launched subscriptions. Effectively they are transitioning BAEC towards being a paid loyalty scheme. That’s not to say there’s not still value to be had.

• Shane says:

  9 Dec9 December 07:41

  I have about 170,000 Membership Rewards with Amex, and a big pile of avios. Clearly it would be daft to transfer my MR points to Avios now, so I’d be grateful if anyone has any suggestions for the best airline or hotel loyalty scheme to transfer them into that will (possibly with a bit of creativity) maximise the value of these points.

  • Ziggy says:

    9 Dec9 December 07:51

    Don’t forget that you can still use Avios on Qatar Airways, which can offer good value if you’re heading East.

  • Alex W says:

    9 Dec9 December 08:11

    Keep them in Amex MR until you need them. Get a free ARCC to keep your account open.

  • Peter K says:

    9 Dec9 December 09:12

    And there is the problem. Pretty much every major scheme has had a recent devaluation, so what is left that’s better? That’s why the nectar tie-up was so useful!

  • Jonathan says:

    9 Dec9 December 09:42

    The best airline loyalty program to sign up to depends most of all where you like travelling to, for example Iberia Plus ha always been great if you like South American countries !
    Singapore Airlines KrisFlyer is a good choice (assuming their hard expiry policy isn’t an issue) if you’re going to Southeast Asia a lot …

    • meta says:

      9 Dec9 December 10:36

      @Peter K In the last five or so years, my strategy has been to diversify. Choose 2-3 programmes where you keep larger balances and maybe another 2-3 where you have smaller balances (just enough to book one long-haul).

      Then you can shop around which gives you the best value at any given time. It’s no different to shopping around for the best airfare.

    • Shane says:

      11 Dec11 December 10:07

      Agreed. I mainly fly to the far east. The Krisflyer programme doesn’t appeal because I’d get fewer points for my Amex MR and I understand it’s almost impossible to redeem them for flights in F. I’m aware that I can use Avios on Qatar, although their redemption rates seem to be identical to BA’s. Emirates might be a possibility, but I’ve not heard much about their programme, e.g. whether redemptions are easy to book, whether they can represent good value, etc.

• Tony says:

  9 Dec9 December 07:56

  BA work-experience kid has shot himself in both feet again. BA striving to lose passengers…with great ease. Bye BA…..!

  • AJA says:

    9 Dec9 December 08:10

    What’s worse is that he’s shot passengers in both feet as well.

  • dougzz99 says:

    9 Dec9 December 11:11

    I’ve been reading stuff like this for years. But BA continue to exist and exist profitably. I don’t like these changes, I don’t like a lot about BA, but if you live in London the viable options are limited. My policy remains earn Avios where possible and use on short haul network. On long haul pay cash and fly from Dublin or wherever the best deal is from. I’ve flown AA more recently as BA was just too poor, next year I’ll give BA another try and see if the pre-pandemic service has resumed to my liking.

• Roberto says:

  9 Dec9 December 08:04

  If you read OMAAT’s take:
  – fuel surcharges are down – : let them eat cake!
  https://onemileatatime.com/news/british-airways-reduces-surcharges/
  If you read the comments + any normal sane reaction
  – devaluation ! : plain & simple!

  • Qrfan says:

    9 Dec9 December 08:10

    I guess at some base level if your business is writing about how to maximise rewards travel, the message that rewards are barely worth bothering with other than once a year with a voucher isn’t *fantastic*? You’d probably want to find a more subtle message? We used to fly first ever year long haul 241 for 150kish miles and £1000, easily recouping the miles by next year (thanks to h4p). Now we pay £850 each + miles for a rubbish Ying Yang seat on aircraft that are falling apart and crew that aren’t used to servicing premium cabins. It’s clearly not the value proposition it used to be. We’ll be buying far more cash tickets on other airlines going forwards.

    • Paul says:

      9 Dec9 December 09:42

      +1 on that. And I suspect many others too will wake up to that. Just did a long trip on *A carriers. Superior in almost every respect (and no “status” effect). I’m not saying goodbye to BA merely that a good share of my travel wallet will go elsewhere.

      • Norsksaint says:

        9 Dec9 December 13:50

        Would disagree with that… I miss BA – appreciate I may be in the minority.
        I have to fly SAS/*A, Lufthansa operate a monopoly, LH/LX biz class is 2-2-2, or you pay a whopping charge to get a “throne” seat, SAS european biz class is non-exsistent, SAS long-haul business class is by default served on a tray and the food is the worst I have had in the air. Trying to find redemtion seats is even worse, SAS guarantees nothing each flight. Want to travel to UK in January?
        That will be 110k eurobonus points, you earn around 125 for the economy seats.

        Give me BA and a 2-4-1 voucher any day. Used my last one this year to fly LHR-SYD in F.

  • Lloyd says:

    9 Dec9 December 08:22

    My understanding is that in the US, large credit card sign up bonuses are the norm, every other week it seems OMAAT is touting a new credit card sign up bonus of 80/90/100k miles. Maybe the extra miles now needed don’t bother them so much. Not the case here, if you didn’t qualify for the Barclays bonus, it’s unlikely anything else of that nature is in the offing due to the restrictions and fees that credit card companies operate under in the UK.

• Gerry says:

  9 Dec9 December 08:13

  BA. Britains Least Favourite Airline? I’m afraid that’s my view now and has been increasingly so. They are experts at shooting themselves in the foot.

• Andrew says:

  9 Dec9 December 08:16

  What’s not explained clearly here is that for non-RFS accounts, it’s not that additional high-Avios low-cash options have been added which you don’t qualify for (meaning you could just pick the old Avios + cash option), it looks like for some reason they have sharply increased the Avios required on the existing bands.

  Regardless of which option is the ‘default’ for different voucher products (ACV/GUF/GPR/BRUV etc) this feels like a very different implementation to UK and US members.

  The linked article expands on ‘More pricing options’ and goes into more detail on this.

• MT says:

  9 Dec9 December 08:26

  Short term this isnt going to affect BA and maybe it reflects a change in stratergy from the huge growth and number of seats we have seen previously.

  You only need to look at the prices you currently pay to fly BA compared to pre Covid to see yield is high at the moment and as such BA would much prefer to sell the seats than give them away on Avios. As such detering people from using Avios, or overcharging them with Avios plus taxes works very well for BA.

  The days of £1k return from Dublin to USA etc appear not only to be long gone, but somewhere BA has decided it does not wish to go back to. So it maybe looking to have less seats flying and just charge more for them and for the time being it appears they are not having an issue in filling seats at what look like sky high prices, so why would they let them go for avios that has much less value to them. Also as CS rolls out the fact is they have a great product you find hard to match with other airlines, so you almost need to downgrade yourself to fly business with someone else.

  Long term, its a terrible plan as demand will drop off and people will go elsewhere, but BA hasnt been good at long term ever so no real surprise there.

  • JDB says:

    9 Dec9 December 09:17

    I’m not sure on what basis you make the assertion that BA ‘hasn’t been good at long term ever’. It has consistently been one of the best managed, most commercial European flag carriers that also operates without government assistance or direct/indirect subsidy. You refer to CS – that alone takes long term planning and has resulted in BA having the best club seat of any European carrier. They have addressed their cost base and pensions in a much longer term manner than others. They haven’t gone bankrupt in the way Swissair, Olympic, Alitalia, SAS have, etc, etc,

    • MT says:

      9 Dec9 December 10:27

      I base it on flying them over the past 20 years and constantly finding them to be one of the worst airlines to fly out of the options I have.

      CS should have been rolled out kuchen earlier, rather than having to retrofit so many planes.

      The airport experience at Heathrow is terrible, First Wing was years late and should have been part of the original plan.

      I was speaking from a customer experience perspective and how so many aspects of BA operations are a complete farce and have been for a long time.

      Before it’s said if I don’t like them why fly with them, simple answer is I don’t unless there is a compelling reason.

      • DaveJ says:

        9 Dec9 December 11:54

        If you don’t like them, why have you flown with them for 20 years?

        I live near Heathrow and there’s always been another option wherever I’ve wanted to go.

    • john says:

      9 Dec9 December 12:34

      They self-admit that they have been bad at long term fuel hedging!

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