Change of plane removes PE class from BA Holiday

[yonasl]

Hello, I have a BA Holiday to Japan for Oct/Nov 2022 (I know, god knows if the country will open at all by then…)

On my outward journey I had a 7pm JAL flight, Premium Economy class LHR to NRT. This plane has now been changed by one without the PE class. BA Holidays has called me and I couldn’t pick up but I suppose they want to discuss this.

I have no wish to be downgraded to Economy even if that gives me a 75% refund for the price paid … I can book LCY-FRA-NRT for the same price (extra change but I get to fly PE for 12hrs which is welcomed vs. Economy).

What are my rights exactly? As this is not a cancelation but just a downgrade, can BA say I have no right to a refund or change at all? (A cancellation would be ideal as I get to pick up any other OW flight I want offering PE, but a downgrade gives me less rights I believe)

Thanks

PS: The FRA-NRT plane is a 787 with 2-3-2 in PE and 2-4-2 in economy. As JAL’s economy is so superior I wonder if it is worth actually saving money (since the universe wants to drive me nuts with this trip to Japan) and trying their Economy product

[SamG]

I don’t see a date where JL44 is operating without a PE cabin – there are some dates where it appears to be full though. If you’ve any flex in dates perhaps you could find a date with availability. Or you could sit on it for a while and set up a expertflyer alert for W availability – it’s a pretty big cabin so likely to open up again

Otherwise going via FRA onto the 787 isn’t a bad idea, it’s a very generous config. But you’d need to discuss that as an option with BAH – I think you are only due the compo at the moment but if it’s the same price they might be able to do it as a normal commercial change.

Sadly I am not hopeful your trip will happen – the current “trial” is pretty much akin to visiting North Korea and the closed border policy is very popular locally

[Lady London]

I agree with @SamG. Don’t fight it. Take this opportunity to either get a refund or – if you can swing it (doubtful) change date to no earlier than next April-May or so.

[ChrisC]

Remember you only get the 75% reimbursement of the cost of the downgraded sector if you actually fly in the lower cabin and you have to claim afterwards.

BAH have more flexibility for rebooking than if this was a flight only booking. If you can put a reasonable alternative routing they are likely to be amenable.

There are more options re significant changes (and a downgrade from PE to Y would surely count) with holidays so have a read of the BAH t&cs before committing yourself to one course of action.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[yonasl]

Thank you guys. Indeed this was just a BAH scare (JAL changed something and BA didn’t see PE but PE was there … they must be having some issues because prices for the PE tickets went from £1,000 to £10,000 hehe)

I think the interesting bit is the downgrade question. We are all familiar here with our right with delays and cancellations. We also know that downgrades get you a certain % refunded. But indeed I do not think a downgrade gives you any rights to change anything (other than at the airline discretion).

[ChrisC]

There where the divergence between flight only and holiday bookings comes into play.

The BAH t&cs include this at 8.3

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/legal/package-booking-terms-and-conditions

“We are only liable to you for cancellations or significant changes to your booking by us. A significant change is one that we make to your booking before your departure that affects an essential term of your contract.”

Now to me a change of cabins class is a significant change and so I’d be wanting to be either rebooked or refunded.

And a down grade isn’t listed under 8.4 as not being a significant change either.

[The real Swiss Tony]

ChrisC wrote:

BAH have more flexibility for rebooking than if this was a flight only booking. If you can put a reasonable alternative routing they are likely to be amenable.

I’m not sure I agree with this. We had a BAH booking planned for 2021 that included LHR-KIX. Obviously that didn’t happen, but the first thing was the KIX flight being cancelled. BAH called me up and I was expecting to be able to jump over to AY or something like that. But no, the only option was a full refund, or move to BA to HND and sort out our own way to Osaka.

Note, if it has a BA flight number my experience is the situation is very different.

[NorthernLass]

There’s been some discussion here around how far EU/UK261 applies to cancellations of flights which are part of package holidays and there didn’t seem to be a definitive answer. There were absolutely grounds to claim for re-routing (someone posted some guidance which supported this), but I guess it would need testing via arbitration or the courts.

[yonasl]

NorthernLass wrote:

There’s been some discussion here around how far EU/UK261 applies to cancellations of flights which are part of package holidays and there didn’t seem to be a definitive answer. There were absolutely grounds to claim for re-routing (someone posted some guidance which supported this), but I guess it would need testing via arbitration or the courts.

From what I understand reading UK261 and the guidance CAA provides (a link to EU regulation) for packages holidays you have the same protection regarding calculation of flights as long as it is the flight that is cancelled.

So for instance, if your flight to Bali gets cancelled because the island has an active volcano and the hotel is closed then you cannot be compensated and may need to adapt to what the holiday company offers. But if everything is working but your flight then this is a flight cancellation and you get the same rights as any other passenger.

2.2.6. Scope of the Regulation in relation to the Package Travel Directive
Article 3(6) and recital 16 of the Regulation stipulate that it also applies to flights within a package tour, except where a package tour is cancelled for reasons other than cancellation of the flight. It is also stated that the rights granted under the Regulation do not affect the rights granted to passengers under the Package Travel Directive (21). Travellers thus have, in principle, rights in relation to both the package organiser under the Package Travel Directive and the operating air carrier under the Regulation. Article 14(5) of Directive (EU) 2015/2302 on package travel and linked travel arrange­ ments, which will become fully applicable on 1 July 2018, also provides that any right to compensation or price reduc­ tion under that Directive does not affect the rights of travellers under the Regulation, but specifies that compensation or price reduction granted under passenger rights regulations and under that Directive shall be deducted from each other in order to avoid overcompensation.
However, neither the Regulation nor the Directive deals with the question of whether the package organiser or the operating air carrier ultimately has to bear the cost of their overlapping obligations (22). Resolving such a matter will thus depend on the contractual provisions between organisers and carriers and the applicable national law. Any arrange­ ments made in this regard (including practical arrangements to avoid overcompensation) must not impact negatively on the passenger’s ability to address his claim to either the package organiser or the air carrier and to obtain the appropri­ ate entitlement

[JDB]

@yonasi you are correct, but the problem is that you may have 261 rights for your flight that are incompatible with the hotel booking etc. – i.e. on a flight only, you might be able to re-route the flight a year later, but the holiday company won’t move the hotel without repricing, so the theoretical 261 rights became just that when part of a package; it’s quite a lacuna in the legislation.

[yonasl]

JDB wrote:

@yonasi you are correct, but the problem is that you may have 261 rights for your flight that are incompatible with the hotel booking etc. – i.e. on a flight only, you might be able to re-route the flight a year later, but the holiday company won’t move the hotel without repricing, so the theoretical 261 rights became just that when part of a package; it’s quite a lacuna in the legislation.

Gotcha. So basically you get your holiday cancelled (flight and then hotel thanks to ATOL) … UK261 allows you to get your flight rebooked any other time but Holiday company may not be willing to offer the same hotel on the new dates. Is this correct?

[JDB]

Yes, that’s my understanding.

[cyberstreak]

We face a similar situation in relation to a redemption BA flight LHR-BKK in Feb-23 that has yet to be confirmed which is irritating given you can no longer boob BA to BKK. We are in PE.

If rerouted on to Qatar, do we get points for cancellation of the sector or cash? And will BA try to give us a pittance?

Thank you in advance as I could not find this in the search feature, although I am sure I have read about it.