Chat thread – Monday 19th May
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This is today’s chat thread.
If you have specific questions about Avios, hotels or credit cards, please ask them in the appropriate forum and not here. This thread is a good place to post interesting deals you have spotted or your general thoughts on travel and all things miles and points. Thank you for contributing.
EU is discussing changes to EU261
Including increasing the timescale before compensation kicks in.
One interesting fact is that nearly 218,000 flights departing from the EU, EEA and Britain were delayed by more than three hours or cancelled in 2024 — 1.5% of the total.
And the numbers actually eligible for compensation would be lower once exemptions are taken into account.
Wow. The measures being considered would make EC261 pretty useless, and would give the airlines an easy ride. Airlines need EC261 to force them to make every endeavour to minimise delays and cancellations.
I do think EU/UK airlines are at a competitive disadvantage though, as they are liable for compensation on flights into the EU but foreign airlines are not. There needs to be parity here.
I also think compensation should be capped at the ticket price.
Although hitherto the Commission and politicians have been highly resistant to watering down EC261, given the economic weakness across Europe there is considerable pressure to reduce the regulatory burden imposed on EU businesses not suffered elsewhere and the c. €7bn annual cost of EC261 to EU airlines is one being examined. Airlines particularly object to be expected to pay for Article 9 costs when a third party (eg air traffic control or airport strike) is responsible for delays/cancellation. The absolute value of compensation fixed in 2004 looks absurdly high vs today’s lower ticket prices. Airlines feel many of the costs should be for insurers to bear, not airlines.
I am having a senior moment and brain freeze! Is it 1 am when the flights are released on BA at the moment or midnight. I think it’s 1 am but I need to secure flights tonight and didn’t want to set my alarm too early then have to wait an hour. Thanks.
Midnight GMT, so yes 1AM with BST.
Thanks for confirming !
Any actual experiences with BAH and tier points for the lead booker only ? Despite additional people checking in the room
There’s no “lead booker” under the new system, points are divided between all the people on the booking. Do you mean a solo BAH where someone not included on the booking also stays at the hotel? It’s probably a bit early for data points as most people will still be collecting the converted TPs from the old system.
just checked out of radisson on my way to work and from observation when booking in advance you get better rooms when booking last minute not so much. Does anyone have a number for the UK dedicated customer support number for vip as when you tap on the 24h customer support on the app it takes you to an overseas number and the number i got from calling the customer support line is for the radisson rewards but has limited hours.
just checked out of radisson on my way to work and from observation when booking in advance you get better rooms when booking last minute not so much. Does anyone have a number for the UK dedicated customer support number for vip as when you tap on the 24h customer support on the app it takes you to an overseas number and the number i got from calling the customer support line is for the radisson rewards but has limited hours.
Try 0113 360 1754
There’s also 0800 755 4111EU is discussing changes to EU261
Including increasing the timescale before compensation kicks in.
One interesting fact is that nearly 218,000 flights departing from the EU, EEA and Britain were delayed by more than three hours or cancelled in 2024 — 1.5% of the total.
And the numbers actually eligible for compensation would be lower once exemptions are taken into account.
Considering fines on big businesses are now moving to a model of the EU laws calculating them on the basis of a % of global revenue, I can see an argument for passenger compensation to be calculated as a % of ticket cost. Where that argument stops holding water is whether and how lost time ought to be valued though.
The problem is that the ‘cost’ of delays (sustenance, lost transfers, potentially accommodation etc) are not linked to ticket cost. Receiving £39 reimbursement for a 12 hour delay on a Ryanair flight for example isn’t particularly proportionate.
And that’s exactly why over 20 years ago it was decided to not link it to ticket price.
EU is discussing changes to EU261
Including increasing the timescale before compensation kicks in.
One interesting fact is that nearly 218,000 flights departing from the EU, EEA and Britain were delayed by more than three hours or cancelled in 2024 — 1.5% of the total.
And the numbers actually eligible for compensation would be lower once exemptions are taken into account.
Considering fines on big businesses are now moving to a model of the EU laws calculating them on the basis of a % of global revenue, I can see an argument for passenger compensation to be calculated as a % of ticket cost. Where that argument stops holding water is whether and how lost time ought to be valued though.
@BWS – the right to claim additional costs (e.g. for something like lost wages) is explicitly preserved in Article 12. If you had a letter from your employer stating that as you didn’t attend work on x date £y has been deducted from your pay, you would likely succeed in a claim for that sum net of statutory deductions.
In legal cases where there may be an entitlement to claim costs (so not usually for County Court claims on the small claims track) a litigant in person can only currently claim costs at the rate of £22/hour. It is accepted that as a LIP needs to carry out more research etc. so they can claim more hours than a professional but it still doesn’t add up to much.
@phantomchickenz – nor is it proportionate that a family of four arriving 4hr01 late in or from from Dubai collect £2080 or a couple arriving 3hr01 late from Lisbon collect £700 having paid £200 for their tickets. Both feel absurd. You do of course currently get paid the reasonable cost of food and accommodation on top any compensation so just getting the €39 ticket price back isn’t the whole story. The general concept of compensation isn’t to enrich someone but rather to put them back in the position they would have been. The sight of people photographing/videoing and willing a late arrival to collect compensation runs totally against all principles of compensation or indemnification.Does anyone have any experience as to booking a BAH (Flight plus Car) as to how long it takes the Tier points for the Car to post in the new BAC world ? Only my flights have posted so far. Thx
Does anyone have any experience as to booking a BAH (Flight plus Car) as to how long it takes the Tier points for the Car to post in the new BAC world ? Only my flights have posted so far. Thx
The points for a car don’t post separately either in the old or new BAC world. In the new system, you get points according to the cash cost (at the rate of £1/1TP) of the BAH divided between each traveller. If BA has already awarded TP for the flight, there’s a risk they aren’t considering your booking as a BAH meeting the new requirements.
Yes, if this s post-30th December booking you shouldn’t have had any tier points except from the BAC bonus promotion. They come from BAH in a few weeks (although not sure if anyone has had any post yet).
@JDB – totally agreed it should be fairer, and we pay those compensation through ticket prices, so just an other way of gaming the system
If 261 is being cracked open, my wish would be for downgrades to be treated the same as a cancellation – as in, give me the choice to walk away, or wait for the next available seat in my booked class. I know I am not alone in considering a downgrade as good as a cancellation as far as I am concerned, in that I simply wouldn’t fly it.
7 bn annual cost of EC261 to EU airlines is one being examined.
7 billion Euros or Dollars or Pounds is absolutely bvggvr all in the context of airline costs though. All that figure proves is that the airlines currently do have an easy ride.
If the airlines weren’t avoiding paying so many claims by a variety of tactics that figure would and should be many times higher.
EC261 should be reviewed to incorporate the decisions in cases which weren’t really well enough legislated in its 2004 version. But generally tighter not looser and with actual cost penalties for failing to advise passengers caught up in cancellations, severe reschedulings, delays and irrops, of their full rights. Plus a cost penalty for delays in accepting or processing claims that delay payout. As currently there’s no punishment to airlines that try these tricks:only upside for them.
7bn annual cost of EC261 to EU airlines is one being examined.
7 billion Euros or Dollars or Pounds are absolurely bvggvr all in the context of airline costs though. All that figurebproves ia that the airlines currently do have an easy ride
If the airlines weren’t avoiding paying so many claims by a variety of tactics that figure would and ahould be many times higher.
EC261 should be reviewed to incorporate the decisions in cases which weren’t really well enough legislated in the 2004 vetsion. But generally tighter not looser and withxactual cost penalties for failing to advise passengers caught up in cancellationa, severe reschedulings, delays and irrops of their full rights. Plus a cost penalty for delays in accepting or processing claims that delay payout.
Agreed.
The battles we sometimes need to have with some airlines in order to get them to provide what the law requires them to is really disappointing.
There are probably many people who are unaware of their entitlements, and those who are aware often get misled.Toothless regulators aren’t helpful much.
No doubt the forum contrarian will have a different view as always.
Why do non-EU/UK airlines escape 261 on inbound flights, is there a gap in the law meaning it would be hard to enforce them paying?
Considering fines on big businesses are now moving to a model of the EU laws calculating them on the basis of a % of global revenue, I can see an argument for passenger compensation to be calculated as a % of ticket cost. Where that argument stops holding water is whether and how lost time ought to be valued though.
There is a difference between how fines are calculated for a corporate body which go to a government and compensation to individuals.
When first designed EU261 was actually quite simple – stop airlines from treating passengers badly and provide some sort of recompense to disrupted passengers.
The regulation was designed to make airlines behave better and not do things like cancel flights at the drop of a hat and leave passengers stranded at airports (and having to pick up all sorts of costs) just because they could and there was zero punishment
What made the regulation more complex was the courts. They were the ones that said delays should earn compensation whereas the regulation only provided the Right to Care. And numerous other rulings have basically turned what should be simple into a complex nightmare for everyone.
The amounts were set as fixed amounts to make the system simple for everyone. Airlines could easily calculate the costs of cancelling a flight and passengers would get a known amount. It stopped ailines finagling what counted as the ticket price to reduce base fares but bump up surcharges and reduce the compensation.
Plus there really isn’t an easy model that calculates the cost of someones time. Someone like @Rob could quote an hourly rate or define lost income from not being able to sign a deal but I’m retired so how would my time be valued in money terms? I couldn’t cite any lost income but my time is just as valuable to me as Robs time is to him.
And a 3 say hour delay on a short haul weekend away can have a bigger impact on the passengers trip than a 3 hour delay on a long haul 2 week trip
Plus there really isn’t an easy model that calculates the cost of someones time. Someone like @Rob could quote an hourly rate or define lost income from not being able to sign a deal but I’m retired so how would my time be valued in money terms? I couldn’t cite any lost income but my time is just as valuable to me as Robs time is to him.
This is so true. I used to know a guy (let’s call him Mr Four Breakfasts) whose hourly rate was so high that clients would fly him to NY on Concorde and back because the fare was lower than his hourly rate based on travel time + time on site. He used to boast of getting four breakfasts on those days, one at home, then in the Concorde lounge, on the flight and then with the client.
My hourly rate is zero nowadays but I value money waaay more than he did because I’ve always had far less of it.
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