Creation Financial Services bashing

[Youllnever]

ColinThames wrote:

In the meanwhile, no way of earning any points with IHG other than Amex MR points, which is irksome.

You can’t convert MR points to IHG though as far as I’m aware.

Edit: ah, never mind. Misread your message

[Rui N.]

You can via Virgin. But in that case, Amex is not the only way, as you can do it with the Virgin cards as well.

[Harrier25]

ColinThames wrote:

Got my complaint response letter from Creation mid December. Registered my complaint with the Ombudsman (Ombudsperson?) yesterday. Let’s see how it goes…
In the meanwhile, no way of earning any points with IHG other than Amex MR points, which is irksome. Is hoping they’ll find a new provider pointless? Surely if Marriot can make it work with Amex then so could IHG, and Hilton for that matter?

selfishly I don’t want Hilton to partner with Amex in the UK because I’m pretty sure that would be the final nail in the coffin for their fruitful relationship with Barclaycard.

[QFFlyer]

Harrier25 wrote:

ColinThames wrote:

Got my complaint response letter from Creation mid December. Registered my complaint with the Ombudsman (Ombudsperson?) yesterday. Let’s see how it goes…
In the meanwhile, no way of earning any points with IHG other than Amex MR points, which is irksome. Is hoping they’ll find a new provider pointless? Surely if Marriot can make it work with Amex then so could IHG, and Hilton for that matter?

selfishly I don’t want Hilton to partner with Amex in the UK because I’m pretty sure that would be the final nail in the coffin for their fruitful relationship with Barclaycard.

I’m in the same boat as you with the Barclaycard, but if they offered a card which gave similar benefits to the Aspire card in the UK, I’d accept it for ongoing Diamond status without having to worry about it.

[The Urbanite]

Appreciate the situation is different for everyone but I’ve actually got no real ire with Creation.

They shut down my IHG white and black cards with no notice in 2020. This coincided with the Wirecard scandal which led to a bypass being made available for Creation’s £700pw restrictions on MCC 6012 routes. But also at the time Creation were taking forever to clear payments and update available spend so a rookie error of going over credit limit got flagged.

I didn’t get the points for the month of closure and Creation told me I would not be getting the certificate for that year, which was earned about 3 days after the anniversary date. But, I was able to let this go.

Firstly, they wrote off my balances – and those cards were very heavily utilised constantly. Secondly, they paid me £150 compo as they misunderstood and thought it was the previous year certificate I didn’t get (which I did). Thirdly, the free night certificate did randomly turn up three months after what would have been the 2021 anniversary. Finally, Creation closing the accounts doesn’t stop them being good for the game, despite their intentions to quit as a player.

A complaint was raised with the FOS in 2020 on a “nothing to lose” basis. It’s now 2022 and they still haven’t looked into it so I wouldn’t hold my breath on that front. Probably best to submit a complaint then forget about it, but I hope everybody gets proper redress for the points and certs rightfully earned.

[Guernsey Globetrotter]

Data point for Creation Marriott card holders – Check your account as I’ve just noticed a random “UK special bonus for spend” credit of 34k points to my Bonvoy account dated 29 December. This does not coincide with my usual statement cycle but it does correspond to roughly the amount of points I was expecting from the summer triple points promo that never arrived… I didn’t mither them about it at the time as I managed to avoid their card cancellation blitz and really didn’t want them scrutinising my transactions too closely! Anyway, better late than never I suppose – a nice little Christmas bonus 🙂

[Nick_M]

Update – The formal response arrived by post this morning. They are not offering any associated rewards, inc points and free nights… “under Section 6 of T&C [….] benefits may be added or removed at any time without notice to cardholders [….] we will no longer be honoring the associated rewards benefits which would also include your annual £99 fee” (I assume they mean benefits that would have been included with the fee)

Well, that doesn’t appear to be treating customers fairly!

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[NorthernLass]

Even if that was genuinely in the Ts and Cs (and I’ve never seen it mentioned), I can’t see how that would be regarded as fair, given that not all accounts have been closed, and no reason has still been given for the closures. And why would they not put that in the closure letters, as presumably it might deter a few people from complaining and going to the FOS?

[Froggee]

This refers to the separate terms and conditions pertaining to IHG rewards club credit card as opposed to the credit agreement. Weirdly Creation seem to be confusing their rights and obligations to its customers with IHG’s rights and obligations to its customers.

“Points accrued and rewards issued are subject to the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club. Please see http://www.ihgrewardsclub.com for full terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club, including all up-to-date redemption values. Terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club may be modified without notice to cardholders, and services and benefits may be added or removed at any time. Individuals whose credit card applications are not approved will not be enrolled into the IHG Rewards Club through this offer, although existing IHG Rewards Club memberships will not be affected. Additional credit card holders will not be enrolled into the IHG Rewards Club through this offer. Points awarded through the use of the Additional Cardholder’s card will be credited to the principal cardholder’s IHG Rewards Club account.”

[Rui N.]

Yeah, for me if they had said that starting from the date of the letter no more points would be accrued I would just let it go and not use the card anymore.
But not only they did not say that in the closing letter, but in late November the statement “reminded me” of the ongoing benefits of the card, including the ability to earn points. So, they have to give me that points at least until the date of that statement, as that was the only communication that I had from them (and communication is another FCA principle) mentioning the ability to earn points at all.

But quite the business that would be if you could charge your customers and then tell them that the T&Cs allows the company to not provide any of what was agreed upon!
BTW, section 6 pf the T&Cs of the “points T&C” says the following (bold is mine):

“IHG Club Rewards Club Information

Points accrued and rewards issued are subject to the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club. Please see http://www.ihgrewardsclub.com for full terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club, including all up-to-date redemption values. Terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club may be modified without notice to cardholders, and services and benefits may be added or removed at any time. Individuals whose credit card applications are not approved will not be enrolled into the IHG Rewards Club through this offer, although existing IHG Rewards Club memberships will not be affected. Additional credit card holders will not be enrolled into the IHG Rewards Club through this offer. Points awarded through the use of the Additional Cardholder’s card will be credited to the principal cardholder’s IHG Rewards Club account.”

So, it’s not about benefits of the credit card at all, but about IHG’s programme.

[Rui N.]

(Sorry, had not seen that Froggee had posted the T&Cs already and I can’t edit now)

[rams]

Creation are a mess. I don’t know who’s leading their approach into this but they don’t appear to be the sharpest or have been badly advised. Quoting IHG terms as though it’s their terms takes the biscuit. When I log into my account it still says “points earned” and free night tracker completed. As well as the points made by @Rui N

[Froggee]

Rui N. wrote:

(Sorry, had not seen that Froggee had posted the T&Cs already and I can’t edit now)

Your reply was better!

[Lady London]

Nick_M wrote:

Update – The formal response arrived by post this morning. They are not offering any associated rewards, inc points and free nights… “under Section 6 of T&C [….] benefits may be added or removed at any time without notice to cardholders [….] we will no longer be honoring the associated rewards benefits which would also include your annual £99 fee” (I assume they mean benefits that would have been included with the fee)

Well, that doesn’t appear to be treating customers fairly!

Seems “Not Treating Customers Fairly”for FOS, and unfair contract terms for MCOL.

That’s even if people were personally notified of such a term. If so, would have had to be provided with ts and cs when tbe card was taken out. Or, if later then with 60 days notice before it came into operation, to the individual cardholder.

Given the unfairness of such a term, even if it was provided to cardholders (which sounds unlikely) tben I would expect the cardholder consumer’s attention to be drawn to it specifically and/or for it to be stated very prominently indeed. Remember in business-to- consumer contracts, the burdens of clarity and fairness towards the consumer, are very high on the business in tbe UK.

It does not matter that Creation are owned and recently being puppeted by France so far as I can tell. Creation are required to operate to operate to UK standards of fairness to consumers and in contracts here in the UK.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[JDB]

Without giving any view as to the rights and wrongs of the terms, I am a bit mystified by the above few comments. The terms referred to are part of the agreement with Creation, accepted at the time of application and I don’t think they have changed materially, if at all, since Creation took over the IHG cards. It seems odd for people to say those terms are only IHG terms (so can’t apply here), not Creation ones as it is these terms which ‘cause’ Creation to award the points in the first place. It is standard to have card rewards terms separate from the legal credit agreement. Those terms have also been used at MCOL and the FOS and accepted as the terms.

[NorthernLass]

JDB, Creation do appear to be using IHG’s terms as the basis to deny card benefits. As you say, their own agreement with customers is something completely separate. If IHG decide to stop awarding me points for stays, for example, that’s nothing whatsoever to do with Creation Finance and their products, surely?

[JDB]

NorthernLass wrote:

JDB, Creation do appear to be using IHG’s terms as the basis to deny card benefits. As you say, their own agreement with customers is something completely separate. If IHG decide to stop awarding me points for stays, for example, that’s nothing whatsoever to do with Creation Finance and their products, surely?

The terms referred to are one of the two parts of the terms of the credit card; they operate together. One is a regulated credit agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the second governs the points and anniversary night certificate. The IHG Rewards terms are a third and separate agreement.

[Rui N.]

These are not IHG terms, but that sentence in point 6 is about IHG terms, no ifs and buts.
Considering that the sentence starts with “Terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club” it’s not difficult to reach that conclusion.

Creation might even think that they can do that, but that sentence is irrelevant for that.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Froggee]

I do wonder if @JDB is trolling us now or just being very obtuse. This is the full sentence Creation appear to be using as justification for not awarding points.

“Terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club may be modified without notice to cardholders, and services and benefits may be added or removed at any time.”

There have been no modifications to the IHG rewards club impacting us, Creation are just nuts. I also got my rejection which was laughable. It ended along the lines of “we see you closed your card anyway so bye bye”.

The thing I find interesting is it appears they are randomly making up excuses as they go along rather than adopting a consistent response which I imagine will make it trickier to bundle up the complaints for FOS.

I’m putting in a complaint for the 200 points denied on the white card they let me have for a week. Obviously it’s not worth my time but it’s more fun than running, doing weights, putting football stickers in an album or any of my other sad hobbies.

[Rui N.]

(This not being able to edit after a few minutes is really annoying)

On those “points terms”, when they mention something related to the credit card itself the language used is “IHG Rewards Club Credit Card” or “IHG Rewards Club Premium Credit Card”
The context of point 6 also makes it quite clear that they are talking about the IHG points programme, not anything related to the credit card itself.
I don’t know how is this is even a point of discussion, it’s not complicated or obscure language.

The terms are here: https://www.creation.co.uk/ihgcctermsandconditions/

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[JDB]

On those “points terms”, when they mention something related to the credit card itself the language used is “IHG Rewards Club Credit Card” or “IHG Rewards Club Premium Credit Card”
The context of point 6 also makes it quite clear that they are talking about the IHG points programme, not anything related to the credit card itself.
I don’t know how is this is even a point of discussion, it’s not complicated or obscure.

Those whole terms relate to the credit card; that much is clear from FOS and County Court decisions. You can’t pick and choose which phrases suit. It’s a bit the same as those who are rushing to claim ‘breach of contract’ but in the same post asking for pro rata refunds of the annual fee and receiving the anniversary night reward early, neither of which is provided for in the terms, so they are expecting those terms to be inferred.

If you read the BAPP Avios terms, they are better worded but remarkably similar in their effect.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[marks7389]

JDB wrote:

Those whole terms relate to the credit card; that much is clear from FOS and County Court decisions. You can’t pick and choose which phrases suit. It’s a bit the same as those who are rushing to claim ‘breach of contract’ but in the same post asking for pro rata refunds of the annual fee and receiving the anniversary night reward early, neither of which is provided for in the terms, so they are expecting those terms to be inferred.

Sorry, that’s just nonsense.

As Froggee also says, the clause they are referring to (the only clause 6 that makes any sense at all in the context of the response that Nick_M has) explicitly relates to modification of the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club. There have been no such changes that are relevant to this in any way. IHG hasn’t suddenly changed their terms to prevent Creation crediting points or night vouchers to people’s accounts!

The relevant statement doesn’t even mention cardholders so Creation appears to be deliberately misrepresenting their own terms and conditions in that response.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[JDB]

marks7389 wrote:

JDB wrote:

Those whole terms relate to the credit card; that much is clear from FOS and County Court decisions. You can’t pick and choose which phrases suit. It’s a bit the same as those who are rushing to claim ‘breach of contract’ but in the same post asking for pro rata refunds of the annual fee and receiving the anniversary night reward early, neither of which is provided for in the terms, so they are expecting those terms to be inferred.

Sorry, that’s just nonsense.

As Froggee also says, the clause they are referring to (the only clause 6 that makes any sense at all in the context of the response that Nick_M has) explicitly relates to modification of the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club. There have been no such changes that are relevant to this in any way. IHG hasn’t suddenly changed their terms to prevent Creation crediting points or night vouchers to people’s accounts!

Well, differing interpretations of contracts is what ‘creates’ civil litigation. I understand, and don’t wholly disagree with what you say, but I think the first sentence of the paragraph needs to be considered together with the second. It is an entire document and considering one phrase out of context isn’t how a court would look at the claim. I would also be very wary, if you are going to FOS or MCOL, of thinking this is the only argument they will come up with; consider all their potential arguments, as previously discussed on here, in framing your submissions.

[Rui N.]

marks7389 wrote:

JDB wrote:

Those whole terms relate to the credit card; that much is clear from FOS and County Court decisions. You can’t pick and choose which phrases suit. It’s a bit the same as those who are rushing to claim ‘breach of contract’ but in the same post asking for pro rata refunds of the annual fee and receiving the anniversary night reward early, neither of which is provided for in the terms, so they are expecting those terms to be inferred.

Sorry, that’s just nonsense.

As Froggee also says, the clause they are referring to (the only clause 6 that makes any sense at all in the context of the response that Nick_M has) explicitly relates to modification of the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club. There have been no such changes that are relevant to this in any way. IHG hasn’t suddenly changed their terms to prevent Creation crediting points or night vouchers to people’s accounts!

The relevant statement doesn’t even mention cardholders so Creation appears to be deliberately misrepresenting their own terms and conditions in that response.

Even if the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards programme had changed, that’s irrelevant to the complaint at hand. People are complaining about Creation’s actions, not IHG’s.

[harley]

Just went through the Subject access request data Creation gave me in November and it included the terms and conditions which i had signed up to in 2020, There is no mention of anything about points being withdrawn : it is IHG Rewards club credit card customer terms and conditions June 2016 which by there own admission mention were the ones i had otherwise they wouldn’t have sent. This is different to the ones that are now online, i do not remember being informed the terms had changed – could they have changed them recently?