Dropping BA Amex for a few years ….

[Cousin Greg]

If we were happy to pay £8k for a seat I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t give a damn about Avios.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[jj]

Harry T wrote:

For people who can run numbers properly and aren’t tied to arbitrary dates, it’s almost pointless using the 241 vouchers most of the time, largely because of the extortionate associated taxes and charges… I’ve recently booked LAX for August in business for £1250 return from DUB… People just enjoy finding some crazy fully flexible business class fares during half term or whatever, and then pretending they’ve gotten huge values per Avios…

Did you read my earlier post where I ran the numbers properly, including costing the 241 at £250, adjusting for the value of Avios on the alternative revenue flight, and factoring credit card points?

The true cost of LHR-LAX return with a 241 is between £1,488 (off-peak, Avios valued at 0.8p, BA Blue) and £1,895 (peak, 1.0 and Gold) per person. If your dates are flexible, you think Avios aren’t worth much, and you don’t often fly BA, your valuation would be £1,488, £238 more than your business class return.

How much did your business class positioning flight cost? Presumably you don’t want to ruin your business class intercontinental flight experience with a trip across the Irish sea with hand-luggage only, economy check-in, no priority at security, no lounge access, no priority boarding and highly cramped seats? If I attempted that trick, my partner would refuse ever to travel with me again.

Google Flights seems to suggest a typical fare of £250-300. And I assume you need an night in a Dublin hotel, too? Better make it a decent one if you value your relationship…can you remind me how much that might cost? Don’t forget to add dinner to the calculation.

So, even forgetting the hotel, it looks like your DUB positioning flight is actually more expensive than a much more convenient direct trip would have been with Avios. Unless I can’t run numbers properly and I’m pretending I want a crazy fully flexible fare during half term or whatever?

[NorthernLass]

@Harry T – that was no crazy flexible fare, that was just the standard non-refundable one! It’s all very well if you want to go to LAX in August and have some date flexibility, and don’t mind starting in DUB, but a lot of people have specific travel dates and need to secure their bookings early to ensure that they actually get something feasible. Mine was obviously an extreme example as we normally never book so close to the departure date and we were lucky there was availability, but it was genuine, none-the-less.

@jj – I’m with @HarryT here – where did you get £250-300 for DUB? If you have flexible dates you can fly from LPL for about £50 return, it’s a 40-minute flight and staying a night before flying is no different to doing the same at LHR which is what us northerners often have to do at LHR. There’s no difference between flying BA and Ryanair short-haul, except BA is more likely to mess you around …

[PGW]

I acknowledge that not everybody has the time to do this but these days my wife and I make a day of the positioning to Dublin by buying Rail/Sail tickets from our local station taking a train ride along the North Wales coast to Holyhead and then have a really pleasant and leisurely sea crossing to Dublin. No costs of a journey to the airport or parking, no requirement to check in hours before, no nightmare security lines, virtually no risk of departure delay and taking as much baggage as we want.

I haven’t done it for a couple of years but in the past we have never paid more than about £40 each and paying £250-£300 would never cross our minds.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[jj]

@NorthernLass, I understand the comment about hotel costs at LHR, but you seriously endure the nightmare Ryanair ground experience at LPL so that you have the opportunity to enjoy a premium experience at DUB? How good is the lounge in DUB? And I thought RyanAir charged more than £40 for hold luggage, which is then limited to 20kg…don’t pack too many shoes!

That’s why I asked Google for the cost of a business class flight from LHR (where BA fly from) to DUB – and the answer is at least £250.

[JDB]

The points @jj makes are entirely sound! The idea that, as part of a long haul First/Club return flight, we might wish to start and finish our journey on Ryanair or similar is a complete deal breaker for me and even more so for my wife. Quite apart from the extended journey times, connection risks, luggage allowance issues, extra packing/unpacking etc, does one really want to stay in some cheapo hotel on the way to this supposedly luxury trip? It sounds more like a penance. As for the concept of asking my wife to get on/off trains and boats with her luggage and golf clubs…

[NorthernLass]

@JDB – this is London/South-centric view – if you’re used to the misery of flying from some northern airports, the DUB route is no worse, or possibly better than connecting at LHR. Some of our best holidays were in cheap hotels when we were younger, if, heaven forbid we ever fell on hard times, we’d have to go back to that. It can also be fun combining a 5 star stay with a HIE-type experience. With the HIE you can marvel at the value you’re getting (and free breakfast which a lot of the 5 starts don’t include!) and then ask yourself if it’s really worth paying for the 5 star when you’re out of the room for most of the day (while lounging around in your robe and slippers on your 800 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets of course 🤣)

I also challenge anyone to show they’ve had a better experience on a BA domestic hop than the equivalent length Ryanair flight!

[Flyingred]

The difference in viewpoints in the discussion is fascinating. My wife’s take on flights is she ‘just wants to get to our destination’ whereas, as a bit of an avgeek, I’m happy to take a more circuitous route involving business class (or even first class) flights. If you plan realistically and are well-prepared, ex-EUs are great.

Because I enjoy flying in business doesn’t mean I won’t stay in Holiday Inn Express hotels – in the last 12 months we have had 6 nights in HIEs, stayed in 3 different InterContinentals, one Kimpton and two Crowne Plazas. Whilst we enjoy InterCons, the HIEs fulfil their purpose and are dependable.

I’m not a fan of Ryanair, however, I’m underwhelmed by Club Europe and having recently experienced Eurotraveller, I think we could survive either Ryanair or Easyjet for short haul positioning flights if there wasn’t a legacy carrier alternative. Having been unable to find value for Avios on recent bookings, we have booked cash tickets with Etihad (twice), Qatar and Swiss. Planning a trip to Bangkok, Emirates (ex-Frankfurt) is looking favourite.

[BuildBackBetter]

Cousin Greg wrote:

If we were happy to pay £8k for a seat I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t give a damn about Avios.

That’s a great point.

And I agree with JJ as well. If everyone was single or have an understanding partner who doesn’t mind staying in a old HIE or flying Ryanair before flying business class, HarryT might make sense. But unfortunately that’s not the case.

If one has to really compare against sale non-refundable cash fare, Krisflyer spontaneous escape is a good example. Discounted, non refundable points bookings. Unfortunately BA doesn’t do that.

[jj]

Flyingred wrote:

The difference in viewpoints in the discussion is fascinating…

I hope that we can all agree with that! I really do understand why some people struggle to find value in Avios, but, for my travel patterns and priorities, the proposition remains strong.

I actually think that Avios flights are much better value now than at any time in the past few years despite the price increases imposed by BA and Amex. My last three First Class trips to North America cost me £1,700, £1,600 and £1,800 respectively, which rendered the Avios option worthless. But those halcyon low-fare days are just a distant memory, so all of my current bookings are on Avios. And don’t forget that availability has improved dramatically with the new 241, too.

It all makes me especially grateful for the two unearned and unexpected BAPP 241 vouchers that Amex accidentally awarded me in January…

[Aston100]

Harry T wrote:

To be honest, I don’t even buy the argument that the vouchers are useful during peak times, as I’ve recently booked LAX for August in business for £1250 return from DUB and SYD for £1250 business return from DUB next January. I also flew to Dubai during December for around £1000 per person from CDG – again, a good price at a peak time. People just enjoy finding some crazy fully flexible business class fares during half term or whatever, and then pretending they’ve gotten huge values per Avios, when they would never have paid the actual cash prices and could probably have found an ExEU that was good value with little effort.

Wow good for you.
You go ahead and do your ex-eu flights as it probably works with your young person lifestyle.
The reality for the rest of us who have no choice but to travel in school holidays (often with family) is somewhat different.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Not Long Now...]

jj wrote:

Flyingred wrote:

The difference in viewpoints in the discussion is fascinating…

I hope that we can all agree with that! I really do understand why some people struggle to find value in Avios, but, for my travel patterns and priorities, the proposition remains strong.

I actually think that Avios flights are much better value now than at any time in the past few years despite the price increases imposed by BA and Amex. My last three First Class trips to North America cost me £1,700, £1,600 and £1,800 respectively, which rendered the Avios option worthless. But those halcyon low-fare days are just a distant memory, so all of my current bookings are on Avios. And don’t forget that availability has improved dramatically with the new 241, too.

It all makes me especially grateful for the two unearned and unexpected BAPP 241 vouchers that Amex accidentally awarded me in January…

jj, a welcome step back, thank you. As I said in the original post, though granted it may have been misinterpreted, I personally don’t get much benefit from the ongoing 2-4-1 strategy, and so am planning on dropping it for a while, to reopen it when the joining bonus changes the maths.

I am genuinely interested if many people actually consider, or indeed calculate, if there is truly a benefit, financial or otherwise, to a rolling 2-4-1 strategy. I don’t deny there can be, particularly as we have heard for those trapped to school holidays and seasonally busy destinations, great benefit, but as I say, that’s not my situation. I suppose it was possibly a bit of FOMO, should I be considering going to XXX in YYY month, etc.. Equally, I was slightly surprised by my calculations, driven by the recent hike in these delightful ‘fees and taxes’, having fallen for the presumably well planned and designed notion that it must be a worthwhile benefit.

Of course there’s also the thought that even though HfP’s readership is relatively large, and I feel somewhat more financially savvy, and almost certainly more financially enabled than a random sample of the population, I have no idea if it represents a statistically significant share of 2-4-1 collectors and users. Presumably in BA’s eyes, continual creeping rises in fees, though admittedly helped recently by the new voucher’s better usability, are easy money with no repercussions as to customer volumes. Or maybe I’m wrong on that and the HfP community is a driving customer portion, which BA monitors carefully for any strategic advantages to be gleaned, and will change it’s conditions if thought necessary to maintain their custom….but then perhaps Hanlon’s razor could have been conceived for BA.

[NorthernLass]

It’s worth having a rolling strategy if you know you’re going to be able to use the 241 for a very expensive F or CW flight. F especially makes a lot of sense. not necessarily for the hard product (especially just now), but for the free seat selection and access to You First, who can be very obliging. Also the F lounges are way above the business ones (again, especially just now).

[BuildBackBetter]

NorthernLass wrote:

It’s worth having a rolling strategy if you know you’re going to be able to use the 241 for a very expensive F or CW flight. F especially makes a lot of sense. not necessarily for the hard product (especially just now), but for the free seat selection and access to You First, who can be very obliging. Also the F lounges are way above the business ones (again, especially just now).

Stupid qn – does the seat selection make a big difference in F cabin?

[jj]

The problem with a rolling 241 strategy is that you don’t earn as many 241 vouchers, and the vouchers are what really make the Avios proposition work. Without a voucher, opportunities to make 1p/Avios are really hard to find. For that reason, my wife and I both have BAPP cards so that we can earn two vouchers per annum.

The rational decision to stick or twist is very non-intuitive and will depend on the interaction of annual fees, earning rates, bonus awards, total credit card spend, options for alternative cards when taking a break, and availability of airline miles from other sources. I would build a spreadsheet that models the total value that you would expect to get fromeach option and look at the answer over a full stick/twist cycle – at least, that’s what I’ve done in the past.

[jj]

BuildBackBetter wrote:

Stupid qn – does the seat selection make a big difference in F cabin?

Yes. Seat selection is a huge deal in F.

Most F cabins now have only 8 seats. 1A and 1K are reserved for Gold and 2F is a bassinet so You First won’t book it for you. So the options for couples to be within striking distance are exceptionlly limited. In fact, unless you are Gold, the ONLY option for a non-Gold couple to side close to each other with with one person sat by a window are 2A/2E. Check carefully when you book: you might need to look at several flights before you find one where you can sit together.

[NorthernLass]

@BBB, for me it’s that you can select them at the time of booking without status, whereas you get charged £100 for the privilege in CW. So F can be marginally cheaper than CW in terms of cash layout on an avios booking. I’m not too bothered about where I sit in F as like @jj says there are only 8 seats and row 1 is usually blocked out! This time we have a window and an aisle, but last time we had 2A and 2K, which was ideal, close enough to communicate if we wanted to but both had a window seat and a good amount of privacy.