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I mentioned my situation in another post, but thought I should start a new one to seek help from community.
I have Qatar flight MAN-DOH-MLE in J that booked through BA using avios. My flight depart Manchester at 21:30 that has now been cancelled. They have put me on the flight departing at 14:55 which I won’t be able to catch due to appointment.
I asked BA to send request to One World putting me on the same flight next day which I think is reasonable. Now I have been informed by BA that Qatar has refuse to release avios seat. There is nothing they could do to help me as this is strict rule set by Qatar.
Thanks @JDB @NorthernLass for answering me in another post. Really need some suggestion for my next move.
You should be covered by EU261 given there’s a considerable gap between the 2 flight times, and (presumably) they are 2 different flight numbers, but it sounds like you’ll have a fight on your hands to get it enforced. Remind us how long is it until this trip? Have you got BA’s response in writing or just by phone? Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will come along shortly but I think you are going to have to deal with QR directly here because they are the operating airline? You might need to fire off a letter to their headquarters or legal department stating your intention to pursue this through legal channels if they don’t comply with their obligations.
As @NorthernLass says, the problem here is actually enforcing your UK261 rights. It makes it all the more complicated having BA acting as the agent when the responsibility to reroute you lies with QR. In the first instance I would call QR directly to see if they will deal with you and insist that the requirement to reroute you lies with them but they have refused via BA so you are obliged to deal with them and the absence of Avios availability is not a lawful basis for refusing your request to be rebooked the next day. If they refuse to do anything, try once more with BA, referring them to their published Standard Customer Guidelines for cancellations on QR joint business routes. If this all fails, your next step would probably be to write a proper hard copy letter setting out all the details, specific breaches of UK261 citing all relevant paras, the irrelevance of no Avios availability and the rerouting options being at your election, not theirs following a cancellation to Qatar Airways Group QCSC at 10-11 Conduit Street, London, W1S 2QR. Give them 14 days (or less if flight is close) to rebook you. Hopefully they will respond positively, but if not MCOL does carry some risk as it would (unless you have plenty of time) require you to buy expensive replacement tickets and while your position asking to be rebooked the following day is very reasonable, their offer to rebook you 6½ hours earlier is not entirely unreasonable so it’s definitely no slam dunk.
@NorthernLass Thanks for quick reply. The response is by phone and BA cs has to chase One World desk to find out the outcome.
As @NorthernLass says, the problem here is actually enforcing your UK261 rights. It makes it all the more complicated having BA acting as the agent when the responsibility to reroute you lies with QR. In the first instance I would call QR directly to see if they will deal with you and insist that the requirement to reroute you lies with them but they have refused via BA so you are obliged to deal with them and the absence of Avios availability is not a lawful basis for refusing your request to be rebooked the next day. If they refuse to do anything, try once more with BA, referring them to their published Standard Customer Guidelines for cancellations on QR joint business routes. If this all fails, your next step would probably be to write a proper hard copy letter setting out all the details, specific breaches of UK261 citing all relevant paras, the irrelevance of no Avios availability and the rerouting options being at your election, not theirs following a cancellation to Qatar Airways Group QCSC at 10-11 Conduit Street, London, W1S 2QR. Give them 14 days (or less if flight is close) to rebook you. Hopefully they will respond positively, but if not MCOL does carry some risk as it would (unless you have plenty of time) require you to buy expensive replacement tickets and while your position asking to be rebooked the following day is very reasonable, their offer to rebook you 6½ hours earlier is not entirely unreasonable so it’s definitely no slam dunk.
@JDB Really appreciate your suggestion. I will start with contacting QR.Might the route of least resistance be to try to rearrange your appointment on that day? I know you shouldn’t have to but compared to all the stress otherwise?
Might the route of least resistance be to try to rearrange your appointment on that day? I know you shouldn’t have to but compared to all the stress otherwise?
It is speech day for my son’s school so rather not miss it. Otherwise he will be really disappointed for not be able to collect his awards in person.
Have you checked if there are actually any seats lefr on the flight you requested? It’s entirely possible that it is fully booked; our next QR flight is not until mid December but already there are only two business seats left for sale.
Have you checked if there are actually any seats lefr on the flight you requested? It’s entirely possible that it is fully booked; our next QR flight is not until mid December but already there are only two business seats left for sale.
hi @BJ There are lots of seats left but Qatar insists no commercial ticket will be rebooked
I’d do what @JDB says in your snail mail signed-for letter to QR. Presumably headed Letter Before Action.
I think your position is perfectly reasonable. Regardless of the fact that you do have the right to be rerouted on a later date that is convenient to you, given to you by the legislation, your situation is reasonable anyway. You have an important event to attend as a family that your son will remember you being there for, for the rest of his life.
Whilst a lot of people would make Zoe’s suggestion, in this case it’s totally unreasonable of anyone to expect you to miss that event. I personally would do everything I could to either try to get Qatar to reroute you to a flight that can work for your situation (unlikely) as they are legally supposed to, and I’d also pursue them to get the legally right answer if I possibly could for the sake of others.
Have you thought of asking BA to reroute you perhaps indirectly? It’s worth an ask, they are not legally responsible but if you’re not willing to pursue Qatar when you’re in the right and should win what else could anyone suggest?
I would not pursue this legally as QR have already been reasonable in providing an alternative on the same date. Have we had any datapoints on success of going legal route with QR; I don’t recall any? DonLee could ask BA if rebooking the reward on Sri Lankan is possible. Even if there is no avios availability they may release a seat on request if it’s only one seat. DonLee did not mention the number in their travel party, if it is more than one seat as I suspect it is given the destination then the solution becomes more tricky, both with QR and with alternative reward seats. Do RJ fly to MLE?
I think there’s more than @DonLee flying as he said his son will miss his school speech day if they have to take the earlier flight.
Personally I wouldn’t make 2 lots of important plans on the same day as I know that airlines are more than capable of throwing any and all travel plans into disarray, however it does make me mad when they mess people around like this and I feel the OP’s frustration!I agree, a same day rerouting is likely going to be seem reasonable, especially in the context of a long haul trip.
However it’d be worth a letter and you could also ask BA if they’d consider putting you on their metal instead
Really appreciate all the suggestions. I will try to tell my story so it may help someone in the future.
The redemption tickets to Maldives is hard to find for summer holiday especially for are family of 3. So we were quite surprised to find those business class tickets on the last day of my son’s school year. Then Qatar just zerod out any business class reward tickets for next two months. Considering the speech day finish at 3 and we are less than 1 hour away from Manchester airport, 21:30 flight should give us plenty of time to make it.
The cancelled flight was second leg that departing DOH at 8am. Looks like Qatar will only operate flights that departing between midnight and 2am.
Since Qatar refused BA’s request I followed @JDB ‘s step by step advices. I contacted Qatar but they just refuse to discuss anything as the tickets weren’t booked with them directly. Then I phoned BA again, this time BA just saying there is nothing more they could do and refer me to read the General Conditions of Carriage for Qatar.
Then just found that I can still book same flight out MAN with standard redemption rate on Qatar website but has 18 hours layover at Doha. I phone BA again see if they could rebook it. But BA can only see economy class on the second leg. So I cancelled my flights with full refund. Transferred to Qatar then rebook with same avios and fees.
Also a bonus to book on Qatar website instead of BA is that you can book the DOH-MLE leg in First with no extra avios and fees. I know it is only Cathay Pacific leased 777 and nothing to be over excited. But with 18 hours layover, we should have plenty of time to check out Al Safwa Lounge and make a short visit to Doha as we have never been to.
Sorry I forgot to mention that as there are only 2 business class tickets available on BA, my wife had to book same flight with her Qatar account. She has no problem rebooking to any day and time. So the lesson for me is transferring avios to Qatar then book from there is preferable if the flights were operated by QR.
Also I have to transfer 27000 avios from my wife’s account with £15 fee to make it work. Thanks for @Rob’s article a few weeks ago.
Great that you’ve found a solution without having to engage BA/QR any further – have a great holiday!
I would not pursue this legally as QR have already been reasonable in providing an alternative on the same date. Have we had any datapoints on success of going legal route with QR; I don’t recall any? DonLee could ask BA if rebooking the reward on Sri Lankan is possible. Even if there is no avios availability they may release a seat on request if it’s only one seat. DonLee did not mention the number in their travel party, if it is more than one seat as I suspect it is given the destination then the solution becomes more tricky, both with QR and with alternative reward seats. Do RJ fly to MLE?
Not reasonable when the legislation so clearly is written to protect the passenger. Few of us can travel earlier due to other commitments, than could travel later, and even without the support of EU261 it’s unreasonable for an airline to assume someone can travel earlier just to suit the airline’s own commercial or operational purposes
After all Qatar doesn’t let passengers just decide they want to switch to an earlier flight on the same day, and that’s OK because it’s a flight on the same day?
Additionally in a disturbing number of cases reported on HfP over time, where Qatar has ‘rescheduled’ or cancelled someone’s flight, there’s also comment that the flight they were told was cancelled or rescheduled seems to still be running without them on it any more.
Or there’s another flight suspiciously close to their originally booked flight time…I had an almost identical situation for our trip to the Maldives next month – BA refused to do anything initially, then asked Qatar when I asked them to, but Qatar said no. Qatar refused to deal with me (or understand the issue) because it was booked through BA. In the end we decided to book an extra day off work rather than risk a very expensive MCOL case.
@LL, I perceive it as reasonable in that they have provided an alternative within 24h. That would work for me because lije Anna I would be wary of scheduling other critical events on same day as travel, and I also tend to book hotels for 1 night on flexible rates on anticipated day of arrival at destination. However, I appreciate not everybody has the same luxury of flexibility as me. I have no idea how much flexibility the customer has in respect of EU261 but initially this is at the whim of the airline involved and if it does end up in court my guess is that the legislation leaves ‘reasonable’ at the whim of the judge involved. I don’t know if this is correct but even if the legislation is more prescriptive in respect of customer rights I still don’t consider it worth the hassle of mixing it with Qatar Airways. Your own comments provide examples highlighting why, and combined with the frequently reported difficulties of engaging with their CS the whole situation has the potential to becone very rapidly both stressful and demoralising. Even if customers do stand up for their rights and push this all the way to court I’m guessing Qatar would let them because it’s by no means certain the customer would win. I know you’re supporting people’s rights and encouraging them to stand up for them for both their personal and the greater good. While I respect and admire this I think value judgesments need to be made as tocwhether people think it worth the stress and hassle. Personally, I’d rather just go the day before or after, add an extra sector to my journey, switch to another airline etc to get problem over and done with instead of dragging out a dispute. These are not merely notions on my part, I say that with the benefit of having fought AF/KLM for 9 months and won, and AY for a year before finally giving up.
BJ you’re exceptional as you have flexibility around your travel and other commitments that the vast majority of people simply don’t have. Plus of course even within the HfP world you’re top end of savvy.
Don Lee has found an amazing solution and I’m very glad he’s shared it. But he was very, very lucky that his effort to find it has paid off. Very few people would have found the alternative flights that worked so much better. Of course we don’t want to go formal if another workround can be found. But your average punter is being bullied in this type of case and EU261 exists to try to give them support against these abuses.
It’s clear Qatar is doing this regularly as well from the reports on here over a long period now and I’ve certainly had “schedule changes” by them which turned an already arduous trip into something that physically flattened me for the trip, more than once.
@LL, as much as it shouldn’t be the case, when it comes to QR the bottom line is that I think we are best to work around it like DonLee has done. QR mixes it frequently, even in high stakes disputes with the likes of Airbus so a dispute with a small number of passengers is not even going to cause a ripple in the ocean in their world.
I don’t think I’ve said anything different to that BJ. If you can find a workround that can work for you then of course that is the better way. However if you’re saying if your situation can’t find a workround then you should just let the bullies of the world walk all over you for their own commercial or operational purposes when civilised advanced countries have put legislation in place to stop such abuses then we would disagree.
But, if we’re sitting in Qsuites on a one way flight worth thousands of pounds for which we paid only say £370 plus 75k avios which most of us here would effectively pay a lot less than 1ppa for then I don’t think we need feel bullied at all. In worse case we might lose out due to the fun and games they play but we’ve still got our 75k avios and £370 to to put the ball back in our court and fly for pennies another day.
I fly cash with Qatar BJ.
One way or another Qatar is being paid for a flight – by me giving them cash or another airline paying them under an existing agreement Qatar signed up for. Or if booked with QR miles then Qatar earns by being able to reduce QR miles liability on their balance sheet.
However they got paid, QR sold a passenger’s seat at a price they chose to, one way or another.
If you think people travelling on award tickets deserve to be penalised (eg by being selected to lose their seat reservation or by being offloaded from the flight they booked sooner than other passengers whenever Qatar haa a problem or wants to sell their seat another way, then this needs to be stated to the passenger when booking and it has to be legally OK where the ticket is being sold. UK / EU261 exists to try to limit or eliminate poor treatment of passengers by airlines and does not make the distinction between source of payment for ticket you’re making BJ.
No, I absolutely don’t think people deserve to be messed around in this way by QR or any other airline! However, it happens and my initial and primary point is related to when we pursue legal solutions versus the tradeoff of stress, hassle and potential cost involved. That point is clearly different for different people. Having gone through this with AF/KLM and AY in the past the bar for me personally is now low but I applaud people like you, meta and the various others on here who promote and have successfully fought for your rights. Given the vast number of People flying on many airlines to many different destinations every day then I would like to think the numbers of people affected by such disruption is just a drop in the ocean compared to the total travelling but that does not make it any less painful and inconvenient when we are one of the few so affected. The numbers of such issues being reported for Qatar here seem to be high relative to other airlines but then QR is a popular choice amongst HFP readers so that may partly explain it. There is also the consequences of the pandemic and QR dispute with Airbus resulting in many schedule changes and metal substitution in past two years. Hopefully now we are emerging from the former and the latter has now been resolved, we will soon see QR schedules and fleet deployment stabilise with the result such issues become less common. Despite that, it is clear from many comments on HFP is that QR CS falls far short of what pax should reasonably expect so I wish they would do something about that as a matter of urgency.
On a more personal note it is interesting to me to learn you fly QR for cash longhaul. Is that a free choice or dictated by your work? If a free choice would it not be better to fly Emirates? Likely to be flying either a380 or 773 so large aircraft with almost zero chance of metal substitution and most likely one or two empty seats on most flights should make for less disruption.
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