UK Government to ban international travel and domestic hotel stays ‘except for work’

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• PM says:

  1 Nov1 November 00:01

  Pandemics need to be managed not stopped. We did not stop HIV or even a seasonal flu. We manage it.

  The way to manage it is not by lockdowns but by effective track, trace and isolate system. You can do it old style door to door like in poor Cuba, by aggressive means like in totalitarian China or through high tech technology like in Singapore or Korea.

  Lockdowns freeze the problem not manage it, the moment you open up, transmission increases.

  Lockdowns are the only option when you fail to improve health service capacity, when you fail to create a meaningful tracing system, when you have no control and just want a breather after running frantically without a set direction.

  Lockdowns kill more people than save. They kill slowly, through suicides, anxieties, depressions, hardship. They kill young, strip them of opportunities, damage self worth and confidence. These deaths do not hit the news, they happen quietly, without heat maps, graphs and statistics.

  Lockdowns save eight five year olds at the expense of twenty somethings.

  Every year 50000 people in UK die of a seasonal flu – we do not lockdown. We keep getting away with the underfunded health service as we got used to living with the flu. It is not sensational, even though every winter our wards are over 80% full, waiting times to A&E and routine appointments are unacceptably long, we don’t think about, it is a fact of life, when you are old, suffer from other conditions and catch a flu, you might die.

  WHO said from day one: test, test, test. We answered Serco and Dido Harding.

  WHO said social distancing. We answered Eat Out to Help Out.

  WHO said to get compliance you need to build trust within communities. We had Dominic Cummings and prof Ferguson.

  WHO said go after the virus, fast and strong. We wasted six months.

  This is one of the richest countries in the world. We are not Vietnam or Mongolia. We have Cambridge and Oxford. Top researchers, state of the art labs, cutting edge technology.

  And yet we are still in the same place as in March – half of us scared to death. Freezing our lives, sacrificing time we will not be given back in the future.

  • Callum says:

    1 Nov1 November 01:35

    1. You can’t just stop HIV, it’s not remotely comparable.

    2. The seasonal flu doesn’t spread through populations like wildfire, filling up hospitals to capacity.

    3. That’s all well and good but a) we don’t have an effective track and trace system and b) I’ve not seen any country manage to control a huge outbreak with it – what have I missed?

    4. Utter rubbish. Lockdowns greatly reduce the problem – they don’t simply “freeze” it. They don’t necessarily cure the problem if you don’t do it properly (though it has in New Zealand and likely will in Australia), but who is claiming it does?

    5. Provide proof that lockdowns kill more than they save and perhaps I’ll listen.

    6. So, f*ck the elderly and disabled? Charming.

    7. As mentioned before, seasonal flu (which isn’t just one virus) has a radically different transmission pattern, making the comparison redundant.

    8. Based on the rest of your rant I can readily accept that you don’t care about people suffering in overcrowded hospitals over winter, many of us actually do however.

    9. Seasonal flu does not kill 50,000 people every year (nor can I find where you get that number from – are you reading conspiracy sites, that would explain a lot of this garbage).

    10. Seasonal flu never results in hospitals across the entire country reaching 100% capacity, requiring emergency field hospitals to take the strain.

    11. Its not good health policy (or just plain ethical) to just let a bunch of people die because it’s a “fact of life”. It may have escaped your notice, but we spend a great deal of time and effort avoiding things like that.

    12. The UK has the second highest rating rate in the world. While they’ve certainly bunged a whole host of stuff, you can’t pretend that they haven’t intended to “test, test, test”.

    13. Indeed, Eat Out was an issue, though we should all realise Boris cares more about money than human life (though it’s an interesting criticism from you given your similarities).

    14. While those events are certainly problematic, I strongly disagree that people would have complied with the rules if it wasn’t for Cummings getting away with it. They weren’t complying with even the tamest of regulations well before then. Its the “I don’t care about others” attitude that’s the problem, combined with a complete lack of enforcement.

    15. What makes you think half the country are scared to death? And I’m very sorry that your precious time hasn’t been deemed more important to preserve than human life.

    • James says:

      1 Nov1 November 02:49

      +1 Callum. And thanks for the time you’ve taken responding to this nonsense.

      • Josh says:

        1 Nov1 November 03:03

        Well it must be one of the longest comments HfP has had…

        • Alex Sm says:

          1 Nov1 November 10:25

          The only question is whether it brought us closer to the truth. The answer is no

        • Lady London says:

          1 Nov1 November 14:35

          And worth reading.

        • Capt Hammond says:

          1 Nov1 November 20:30

          And most risible

    • Char Char says:

      1 Nov1 November 07:54

      Prove that lockdowns work then and no posting data about a reduction In cases that were already happening due to the virus being seasonal don’t count

    • Ruth4325 says:

      1 Nov1 November 08:50

      Spot on Callum

    • TGLoyalty says:

      1 Nov1 November 09:00

      Re 2 it has and does only the effective vaccine stops it doing so.

    • Alan says:

      1 Nov1 November 09:59

      Well said, Callum, although I doubt the OP will bother to read!

    • PM says:

      1 Nov1 November 11:49

      Thanks Callum – you are certainly very passionate about the subject. I wish there was so much passion and eagerness to sort out the current situation among our Government officials. Six months of no tracing system, undermining isolating advice with own advisors breaching rules and putting Serco teenagers in tracking roles is a crime against the nation. Their own exercise Cyngus in 2016 and preparedness reports in 2019 described very well how to get things right. Yet, our only option is still a lockdown.

      Please check Office for National Statistic
      data regarding average number of excess winter deaths, England and Wales, 1950/51 to 2014/15. Excess deaths in 2014/15 (so in addition to a regular flu death expectation) was 44000, in just four winter months.

      Were these people less important than those dying now? There was no lockdown then, so why now?

      It is because we are still not ready to manage the pandemic. One of the richest countries in the world.

      Now it is time to finally sort out test/trace/isolate. It is time for the Government to show vulnerability, compassion, rebuild trust, activate localised response and stop these nonsense how we are world beating, fantastic, got it right.

  • AndyC says:

    1 Nov1 November 02:40

    We also had Robert ‘Three Homes’ Jenrick, who was yet another to flout, or otherwise ignore, the advice that was out there at the time, and who, like Cummings, got away with it thanks to BoJo being in the hospital (not that Jenrick would have been leant on to resign anyway)..

    • Crafty says:

      1 Nov1 November 08:52

      And that he’s overwhelmingly corrupt already.

  • SWWT says:

    1 Nov1 November 10:16

    Well considered, some valid points. A student of Ivor Cummins maybe?
    You appear to have touched a nerve….

  • John says:

    1 Nov1 November 11:06

    For those who think there is consensus, the WHO do NOT recommend lockdowns as a primary way to control infection and in Europe all they’re doing is lockdown. That’s the strategy. Be careful paraphrasing the WHO to fit the lockdown agenda.

    CDC put excess deaths not due to Covid; but related to Covid, ie cancer deaths, suicides etc at between 100-200k.

    • James says:

      1 Nov1 November 20:09

      Really John? You do understand that the lockdown is to try to control (excess) demand on the limited NHS acute beds, don’t you. This is pretty basic stuff.

• AJA says:

  1 Nov1 November 00:58

  This whole fiasco is just what I thought would happen. We were treated like adults under the different tiers but everyone complained that those in Tier 3 were being discriminated against most, followed by those in Tier 2.

  Labour and several media outlets all complained that BoJo was ignoring Sage and that a national “circuit breaker” lockdown was necessary. Now that BoJo has done what they all wanted we now have the complaints starting that it wasn’t done soon enough and now it’s unfair because it’s draconian measures and we can’t travel etc.

  And we have people yet again trying to work out how to circumvent the rules or saying they’re going to do a Dominic Cummings/Margaret Ferrier/Victoria Derbyshire (highlight preferred choice) and do their own thing. It’s ridiculous, we are where we are precisely because people have not followed the rules and have done whatever they want.

  it’s 4 weeks where we have to stay at home unless it’s absolutely necessary to be elsewhere. Get a grip people and just follow the rules!

  • Cat says:

    1 Nov1 November 01:08

    👍
    Although I do think it was exceptionally daft that they didn’t do it a week ago.

    • Polly says:

      1 Nov1 November 14:37

      Yes, the signs were there, but local objections delayed the decision…

  • Brian P says:

    1 Nov1 November 09:23

    “precisely because people have not followed the rules”

    i haven’t seen any evidence for this, just speculation. it is more than likely schools and universities open, shops open, rule of 6 in restaurants is enough to raise the R well over 1 with 100% compliance.

• Callum says:

  1 Nov1 November 01:02

  “It is also unclear if anyone currently visiting the UK for personal reasons will be allowed to leave.”

  Really? Because it seems incredibly obvious that the UK government would not ban foreigners from leaving the country. How on Earth could that ever work!?

  The usual bunch of moronic “Covid isn’t a big deal”, “the government are pretending Covid is worse than it is”, “I’ve done a few hours of research and thus know far more than the entire medical community on this topic” and “just let the old people die – loads die anyway so they don’t matter” comments are predictably depressing. I can’t wait until I can move away from this hell hole again!

  • joe says:

    1 Nov1 November 01:19

    I think you’ll will find that in every country!

    • Callum says:

      1 Nov1 November 10:14

      I didn’t find it in Greece, nor did I find in it Australia or New Zealand.

      I’m certainly not saying that “no one” has that attitude over there, but within an hour of returning to the UK I saw more “bad behaviour” than I saw in weeks in those countries.

      • TomH says:

        1 Nov1 November 10:50

        Maybe that’s the reason Greece, Australia and New Zealand have fewer than 70k cases all together since the start of the pandemic while the UK has managed that in the last three days

      • Capt Hammond says:

        1 Nov1 November 20:34

        Well, that’s not what I saw in Athens last weekend – some perfunctory mask wearing for sure, but no social distancing, especially on a Saturday night in Psyrri…

  • Callum says:

    1 Nov1 November 01:40

    Dead…

    Though unluckily for you, my frequent exposure to idiots means that while I have plenty to say on the subject, I am in fact perfectly calm.

    • Josh says:

      1 Nov1 November 02:35

      Everyone is an idiot at something. To be honest, those thought of as being most intelligent (academics, for example), are usually ones also incapable of thinking outside the box.

  • Jack says:

    1 Nov1 November 02:35

    So should we just bankrupt ourselves with continuous lockdowns?

    • Tariq says:

      1 Nov1 November 08:57

      That’s what the bedwetters and chronically lazy want. To return us to middle age civilisation.

      • Callum says:

        1 Nov1 November 10:21

        What a pathetic individual you are – no one wants that. (Though if you saw my climate policies……)

        No, I don’t think there should be continuous lockdowns, but thank you for just making up some rubbish based on nothing at all.

        The measures we initially had after the last lockdown were probably sufficient, but a huge proportion of the population refused to follow them and businesses and police refused to enforce them.

        Now it’s far too late, so yes I support a lockdown. Though one month doesn’t mean “continuous” in any dictionary I’ve ever seen. Nor would anyone with the slightest grasp on economics think it would bankrupt the country.

        • Char Char says:

          1 Nov1 November 10:30

          Stop blaming rule breakers for the problem, your logic doesn’t explain why there was any drop in cases until now!
          It’s is clear that it’s seasonal!!!

        • Rob says:

          1 Nov1 November 10:34

          For a laugh, you should work out the cost of all this since March and – based on £2 billion raised per 1p rise in income tax – work out how much it will increase by.

        • OHR says:

          1 Nov1 November 21:09

          Lockdowns forever, free furlough money. Let the young pay for it later. They caused it by going to school.

  • ChrisBCN says:

    1 Nov1 November 07:52

    Thank you Callum. It is very depressing reading a lot of the comments on here on this subject. You can partially blame the filter bubbles that exist (thanks to the tech companies) – unfortunately many here don’t seem to understand that they are stuck in their filter bubbles and are in denial about it, hence why everybody thinks almost everybody else is stupid.

    • Char Char says:

      1 Nov1 November 07:58

      Same with you agreeing with one side

      • ChrisBCN says:

        1 Nov1 November 08:04

        You have absolutely no idea which of these comments I agree with and disagree with.

      • Callum says:

        1 Nov1 November 10:24

        That is the biggest problem with discussion nowadays – so many people are completely unable to grasp nuance or think critically so just “choose a side” instead. I constantly see “wait, you disagree with me on X? You MUST therefore believe Y and Z” which is clearly absurd.

        • ChrisBCN says:

          1 Nov1 November 10:50

          A rather sad polarised state we are in. And it’s finally spread from Twitter to HfP!

  • Josh says:

    1 Nov1 November 09:25

    I think you need a holiday Callum

    • Callum says:

      1 Nov1 November 10:12

      You’re absolutely right!

      And for the record, I see why you would think my comments are “angry” but we are literally discussing something that’s killing hundreds of thousands of people. I hate how scientifically illiterate people are in general life (and miss the days when those people would just stay quiet instead of thinking reading an article is equivalent to having a doctorate!), but when people combine that with Covid conspiracy theories, or a simple “who cares if people die, how dare you inconvenience me”, I think it needs to be challenged. Something I thought was futile, but I have seen several people I’ve “forcefully challenged” on here slightly changing their tune (not that I can necessarily take any credit!).

      • Josh says:

        1 Nov1 November 10:39

        Having a doctorate makes you an expert in a tiny field of research.

        I would know. I have one.

        Working with academics, those I have come across mostly have difficulties thinking “outside the box”.

        • Jayne says:

          1 Nov1 November 20:12

          Josh the troll again

    • Char Char says:

      1 Nov1 November 10:26

      Callum, you are one of those people who think they like everything and like to criticise entering else who can’t possibly be right, going against your BBC advice.

      • Char Char says:

        1 Nov1 November 10:27

        *know everything

        • Callum says:

          1 Nov1 November 10:46

          There’s no doubt whatsoever in my mind that I know more than a lot of people here, but I’ve never claimed nor implied that I know “everything”.

          While its rare because I don’t tend to begin discussions on something I don’t already understand, on occasions I’m corrected you’ll see I happily concede points. I do like to be correct – which therefore means I also like to be corrected when I’m not. I also certainly don’t get my “advice from the BBC”, whatever that’s meant to mean?

          If we’re going to be analysing eachother based on only a few posts, you come across as someone who is ruled by emotion, dislikes thinking rationally or logically and instead of actually thinking, prefers to make knee jerk assumptions based on (faulty) hunches. I know which I’d rather be!

        • Char Char says:

          1 Nov1 November 11:57

          Blindly following the government scientists doesn’t make them correct

        • Callum says:

          1 Nov1 November 12:26

          If you’re going to keep spouting irrelevant nonsense and dishonest summaries of my position, I’m not going to bother engaging with you. You’re effectively a liar…

          I’ve never said, nor implied, that I accept anything stated by a government scientist without question. Your claim doesn’t even make sense given there’s never a 100% consensus between them – how can I simultaneously agree with both sides?

  • John says:

    1 Nov1 November 11:08

    Legislation last time clearly permitted overnight stays for persons trapped in the U.K. and unable to return home. It won’t be different this time.

  • Lady London says:

    1 Nov1 November 14:19

    Good comment , @Callum.
    It’s just not like the UK, in other places. Much more “we’re all in this together and let’s do what we’re told to protect the vulnerable’ cohesiveness in other places. They pull together. From what I see on the streets this is not the case in the UK.

    I dont know where the UK went wrong for society to be like this.

• Paul says:

  1 Nov1 November 02:36

  Hmm, I was thinking of using some Hilton points to stay in somewhere like Turkey for a couple of months if it’s possible to leave. With lots of places available from 4,000 points, and until 31 December 10,000 points back for every five nights stayed this would be low cost. I’d happily take a COVID test before departure and isolate on arrival although that’s not currently a requirement. For a long stay I’d do this anyway as it’s not a big deal. Working for home doesn’t have to be in the UK.

  • Josh says:

    1 Nov1 November 02:42

    Although you need to weigh up the risk of anything happening in the UK that you may need to rush back for at a moment’s notice.

    • Paul says:

      1 Nov1 November 02:50

      True, although I’m in Northern Ireland and could fly via Dublin with flights still operating from Turkey despite a near-total lockdown there. Preventing travel across the Irish border is not something that will happen happen for political reasons. I guess it’s a gamble if things get much worse, which in the short term seems likely, less so, hopefully, in three months or so.

      • Josh says:

        1 Nov1 November 03:01

        Ah that’s an option then. I would like to travel, but even if i went somewhere i know the experience once I get there wouldn’t be the same.

        • Paul says:

          1 Nov1 November 03:08

          I agree with you and would feel the same if I was going for a couple of weeks but for a longer period I think I’d manage the stress.

      • Mr(s) Entitled says:

        1 Nov1 November 04:52

        Disruption at the Irish border looks increasingly likely. Might be best to stay away long enough until Boris has built his bridge from Northern Ireland to Scotland. Thankfully he has a good track record with bridges so you need not worry.

    • Chris Heyes says:

      1 Nov1 November 08:59

      OOOooo Josh i can tell you i switch my phone off just before i get on a flight and never switch it back on until i get back
      My reasoning is if it’s bad news why ruin my hols, can’t do anything until i get back lol
      not one of those that need look at their phone all the time

      • Josh says:

        1 Nov1 November 09:20

        Haha I only wish I could do that, Chris 😂

• Track says:

  1 Nov1 November 05:59

  Scientific approach! Absolute madness.

  One year down the road, ok 10 full months — and there are still no effective measures (testing, masks/shields in airports).

  At the same time, any super-spreader can travel freely between countries ‘for work reasons’.. and we actually don’t welcome or insist they stay a full quarantine after a test at the airport.

  • ChrisW says:

    1 Nov1 November 08:24

    No masks in airports?? When was the last time you stepped in an airport??

    • Zain says:

      1 Nov1 November 08:53

      I flew from LHR last Wednesday and saw a few airport staff with masks lowered around their necks or worse yet, the mask covered their mouth but not nostrils. Not saying everyone’s flouting the rules but definitely not 100% compliance either.

      • Callum says:

        1 Nov1 November 10:30

        A huge irritant of mine!

        While there were many aspects of the Melbourne lockdown I found horrific, the zero tolerance on not wearing a mask (with hundreds of £100 fines given out) was something I actually miss!

        • Paul says:

          1 Nov1 November 15:56

          I agree. It’s disgraceful that some airport staff at Heathrow are now wearing masks or are not covering there mouth AND nose. I made a formal complaint in T5 security last week concerning a team member with a mask around his neck!

        • guesswho2000 says:

          2 Nov2 November 08:19

          The number of id1ots I see not wearing their masks properly under the guise of “exercise” of some other reason, even here in Vic with the threat of the fines, is astounding.

• Winchpete says:

  1 Nov1 November 06:43

  Even if the restriction on travel is only advice, some power crazed Chief Constables will probably set up roadblocks outside airports to decide if people have a valid reason for travel.

  • mvcvz says:

    1 Nov1 November 09:54

    Does enforcement of the law equate to being power crazed?

    • Nick_C says:

      1 Nov1 November 11:42

      You missed the point. The Police can (and should) enforce the law. They cannot, and should not, attempt to enforce guidance. Sadly, many Officers and Forces don’t seem to understand the difference between Law and Guidance.

      • Josh says:

        1 Nov1 November 12:34

        I remember the policewoman in Rotherham shouting at a family in their own garden to get back inside because “the virus doesn’t stop at your garden fence”

        So yes, some law enforcement are power crazed and over zealous

        • Jamie says:

          1 Nov1 November 20:15

          But she was right, wasn’t she Josh?

• Graeme says:

  1 Nov1 November 06:55

  I’m heading to the Maldives on Wednesday, just before the new restrictions come in. I’m sure it’ll be fine getting there but getting back concerns me… it’s unclear whether the airline has a responsibility to do so, assuming they start grounding flights. It’s also unclear whether your travel insurance would cover any additional costs as a result of a delay…

  • Anna says:

    1 Nov1 November 07:05

    I personally think they will realise that it’s not going to be feasible to enforce an international travel ban selectively (i.e. just for holidays). A total ban (which would be lawful if the relevant legislation was passed, as has happened in many other countries) hardly seems worth it for 4 weeks for the chaos it would cause. Between now and Thursday they can’t possibly decide who will be responsible for enforcing it (check in staff? security? magicked-up police?).
    I might be wrong but it would be a logistical nightmare. And before the bridge-dwellers start, I haven’t left the north of England for 14 months and have no international travel booked until next year!

    • Anna says:

      1 Nov1 November 07:11

      But in answer to your question Graeme, the airline would still be liable under EU261, IF applicable so that’s crucial really, as I think, e.g. BA would be obliged to get you back but not Emirates, though I’m sure they would eventually. Insurance will depend entirely on the Ts and Cs of the policy.

      • Graeme says:

        1 Nov1 November 07:33

        Thanks, Anna. This is useful. We’re travelling with BA so I imagine EU261 would apply to get us back.

    • Callum says:

      1 Nov1 November 10:37

      They certainly could – though I suspect you’re right and they won’t.

      Airlines have already done this enforcement themselves several times when certain countries were only allowing in people for work reasons etc.

      Its no doubt beyond the competence of the government to create a permit system, but something like requiring a self declaration form with a team of people doing random checks on them would be sufficient to stop a large proportion of it.

  • Nathan says:

    1 Nov1 November 09:23

    I’m on the BA flight on Wednesday too! I just messaged my insurance company and they said “as long as you travel before the lockdown starts and you travel to a country that the Government deem safe then we will cover you if you were to make a claim”.

    And I assume if BA cancel their flights so we cant get back, they will just book us onto a Qatar?

    • Graeme says:

      1 Nov1 November 10:29

      Thanks, Nathan. That sounds promising re the insurance. See you on the BA61 too 👍

• Tom says:

  1 Nov1 November 07:16

  We’re on the flight on Wednesday too, Graeme. 90% sure we’ll go ahead but share your concerns about getting home.
  Anna, thank you for the useful clarity on EU261.

  • Graeme says:

    1 Nov1 November 07:34

    See you on the flight 👍

    • Tom says:

      1 Nov1 November 07:57

      👍🏼😎

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