News: easyJet twilight check-in at Glasgow, first photos of new Piccadilly Line tube trains

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• ChrisBCN says:

  3 Aug3 August 04:18

  To pre-empt the inevitable complaint about London getting more investment – half the trains are being built in Yorkshire. And London getting new trains to replace the oldest in the country (c.50 years old, alongside the bakerloo) shouldn’t mean you shouldn’t have new trains in the north either!

  These have 10% more capacity than the old ones, primarily due to the walk through design (there are no more ends to the inner carriages).

  • Gordon says:

    3 Aug3 August 04:38

    (there are no more ends to the inner carriages).

    I saw this when I was on the tube a couple of weekends ago, It does give the feeling of more space, it was the first time I’d been on a tube for a long time and I was impressed.

  • G says:

    3 Aug3 August 06:37

    And for those still determined to complain; investment in London / South East is actually an economic multiplier; anywhere else is an economic drain.

    • Harry Holden says:

      3 Aug3 August 09:21

      Said by Southerners to make themselves feel smug.

      When I go to football using Northern Trains, I do travel for free. This is because the ex-buses on train bogeys Northern use with 2 carriages are so crowded, the guard cannot pass through the train to check tickets. The stations are unstaffed, so are free to enter / exit. I would estimate that 90% of the people on the train do not or cannot buy a ticket through the unmanned stations not having a ticket machine. If you get a fine once a month and you are well into profit.

      Investment is not just about the city.

      • Andy says:

        3 Aug3 August 09:32

        That’s great! Do you also take advantage of the crowded carriages and try your luck at a spot of pickpocketing too?

      • Andrew says:

        3 Aug3 August 10:07

        Except central government will look at the number of tickets sold and conclude that there’s next to no demand for trains so no need to upgrade them. Well done.

      • ChrisBCN says:

        3 Aug3 August 10:11

        Do you go to M&S for snacks, and walk out with them without paying because, you know, there are too many people queuing so you don’t need to pay? There is never enough staff to stop you anyway.

      • Andrew. says:

        3 Aug3 August 10:24

        The last Northern Pacer train was withdrawn from service in November 2020.

        Sounds like you haven’t been on a train, let alone fare evaded, in 3 years.

      • ankomonkey says:

        3 Aug3 August 10:36

        I went to see FC Porto play last season. The match was attended by over 30000 fans. There is a Metro train station opposite the stadium. After the match, the station entrance we used was manned by staff checking everyone had tickets before letting them go to the platform. I was amazed, and somehow it didn’t seem to add too much time to the process. We had tickets, got checked and were still on the platform within about 5 minutes of getting to the station.

    • Thegasman says:

      3 Aug3 August 09:53

      *Was an economic multiplier*

      In an era of remote working, significantly less cheap imported labour to prop up service industry, unaffordable rent for young professionals & the negative impact on CoL from our isolationist government the old tropes about central London supporting the rest of the U.K. are greatly diminished.

      We could also talk about how the North was the driving force (via Industrial Revolution) in establishing the U.K. as a global power house from which a huge amount of our modern prosperity depends (including the legal & financial sectors in London) & I won’t bother starting on Maggie Thatcher 😉

    • Muzer says:

      3 Aug3 August 10:59

      I’m strongly in favour of transport investment both in London and elsewhere in the country. And even I think you’re talking absolute bollocks, lol. I don’t know how you can say with a straight face that something like Manchester’s Metrolink is an economic drain for instance. It’s a huge part of what makes Manchester the modern city that it is and has attracted a bunch of significant economic activity that I’m sure wouldn’t have been there without it. And as a relatively standard and straightforward tram system it’s relatively cheap as well. That’s just one example – there are plenty.

    • Mike says:

      3 Aug3 August 11:51

      It’s a multiplier because the Treasury keeps investing there making it a given. When funding for transport can be an order of magnitude higher than the regions then something has gone seriously wrong.

      • Track says:

        3 Aug3 August 16:04

        Not sure about “seriously wrong” comment.

        Greater London area is a metropolis, where fast and not overcrowded transit is important. Basically a lot of people of above average pay / above average activity concentrated.

        Time wasted in transit / traffic = less productivity * value (London GP or consultant will still be paid more whether they see 10 or 9 people a day).

        Opportunities to have a car VERY limited. No new parking spaces offered with buildings like for 20 years. ULEZ rules.

• northernline says:

  3 Aug3 August 04:23

  Still a few concerns internally here at LU about how well the air cooling is going to cope in real world scenarios, but we hold out hope! As Rob says though, it’s signalling improvement which is really going to improve passengers journeys (if the government ever agree to pay for it).

  • Mark says:

    3 Aug3 August 06:41

    I was thinking I wonder how well the AC would work in reality, especially as the hot air will just be pumped into the tunnels and can’t be vented to ground level easily a la the New York subway

    • John says:

      3 Aug3 August 07:41

      Would retrofitting platform doors at the hottest stations help?

      • northernline says:

        3 Aug3 August 18:21

        Yes, it would help but it’s very expensive and a lot of platforms are so old that they can’t withstand the added weight of the platform edge doors and associated machinery, so they’d have to be rebuilt too.
        Ventilation to the surface helps – the Northern line extension to Battersea was built with two ventilation and evacuation shafts, which can also suck up smoke in the event of a fire in the tunnel.

    • insider says:

      3 Aug3 August 08:52

      technically, the trains passing through the tunnels are the pumps that keep the air circulating.

    • Andrew. says:

      3 Aug3 August 09:06

      There’s massive fans and vent tunnels throughout the underground pushing hot dirty air to the surface. I wouldn’t want to live or work near one.

  • Max says:

    3 Aug3 August 09:32

    Hopefully not as bad as the awful Victoria line trains – relatively new trains which are far hotter inside than the old Piccadilly line trains.

    • Chabuddy Geezy says:

      3 Aug3 August 09:47

      Victoria Line does not have AC. London Underground argued that the trains spend more time with the doors open on that line, and is completely underground, unlike most other lines so AC is counterproductive.

    • Londonsteve says:

      3 Aug3 August 13:06

      Agree those Victoria line trains are really stuffy. The 1973 Piccadilly line stock was designed with old fashioned but effective ventilation that does its best without any AC. I suspect the architecture of the new Victoria line trains is rather like those of new buses; largely hermetically sealed and fundamentally designed to have AC.

  • Londonsteve says:

    3 Aug3 August 13:04

    Is it an air cooling system rather than air conditioning? I’d be disappointed if it’s the former, consistently cool journeys to and from Heathrow are one of the things I’m looking forward to when the new Siemens trains come into service…

  • StanTheMan says:

    3 Aug3 August 13:39

    Thankyou for your service

• Tariq says:

  3 Aug3 August 04:46

  Amazing that they need as many as 94. Anybody got any idea how many trainsets are on the line at any one time?

  • Muzer says:

    3 Aug3 August 11:02

    And there were at one point plans to have the Piccadilly line take over the Ealing Broadway branch (ie all District line services west of Turnham Green). Not sure if that’s still happening, but you’d need more trains for that.

• Andrew says:

  3 Aug3 August 07:23

  Even warmer tunnels then… maybe the trains are more efficient and offset the additional AC consumption.

  • aseftel says:

    3 Aug3 August 08:36

    I believe the new trains will have regenerative braking, which will indeed improve underlying efficiency. No idea how it nets out against the AC though.

    • ChrisBCN says:

      3 Aug3 August 09:01

      They are also a lot lighter due to less under carriage, which will make them a lot more efficient.

    • buchanan101 says:

      3 Aug3 August 10:46

      Actually the article says lighter so more efficient (until you load 10% more passengers)… Regen braking on a tube train makes a lot of sense given what they do.

      Did you know that the Victoria line was built with stations higher than the track before and after – so a sort of gravity based regen braking. (I think all motorway junctions should be designed with the motorway below the feeder roads… but I digress…)

      London underground problems are in a large part due to clay. I remember back in the 70s/80s you could go in the tube on a hot day to cool down…

      • marin says:

        3 Aug3 August 23:05

        Glasgow subway was originally cable driven, so the station were built on humps so that gravity would assist releasing and regrabbing the cable.

  • Tim says:

    3 Aug3 August 12:27

    Picadilly line runs for substantial milages outside.

• Jezza says:

  3 Aug3 August 07:54

  Why blame the government for not funding the signalling upgrade? Whether it is or isn’t the responsibility of the government and whether it is or isn’t appropriate for taxpayers outside London to fund something they never use, rather than TFL / Mayor or the users themselves is something many will have potentially strong views on.

  But come on Rob – less of your personal politics please. This is a travel blog not BBC / a political newspaper.

  • Tom says:

    3 Aug3 August 07:59

    I’d rather the blog had some personality (even if I don’t always agree with Rob’s views) than read like it was written by ChatGPT.

    • Jessa says:

      3 Aug3 August 08:29

      No issue with personal commentary at all and I agree I prefer some opinion is expressed – but on the subject of the blog not on whether is it or isn’t the government’s responsibility or fault.

      • Rob says:

        3 Aug3 August 08:34

        The Government funds TfL and the Government funded a set of trains which only work properly if new signalling is put in. These are factual statements.

        • JDB says:

          3 Aug3 August 09:40

          Central government ceased to fund TfL in 2018 (a decision taken in 2015) but has found itself obliged to step in and bail out TfL, partly as a result of the collapse of fare income (the main source of funding) during covid and huge EL cost overruns.

      • Peter K says:

        3 Aug3 August 09:07

        Are you Jessa or Jezza? You seem to be both.

  • Rob says:

    3 Aug3 August 08:07

    It’s a statement of fact – the Government via TfL won’t fund the upgrade and that ‘unfortunately’ means that the trains cannot do what they were bought to do.

    The trains would have been cheaper and delivered quicker if they only had to work with the existing signalling.

    • Rich says:

      3 Aug3 August 08:19

      Government has limited resources of course – let’s hope they’ve allocated the investment to higher returning projects than improved Piccadilly Line frequencies.

      • Track says:

        3 Aug3 August 16:26

        Actually, Piccadilly Line frequencies and sorting out travel through Acton Town to be more smoother — is a worthwhile project.

        Piccadilly Line is normally full at all times, weekdays and weekends.

        Trains often stand 5-7 minutes, particularly at stops before Heathrow ‘to normalise’, and termination/change of train at Acton Town is not infrequent.

        It is actually not normal for a fast transit / metro line to and from Airport to terminate like that.

        • Londonsteve says:

          4 Aug4 August 16:36

          I agree that journey times to and from Heathrow can be erratic, and that’s just when things are working ok. When there’s a meltdown it’s made worse by having to manually signal their way out of the mess and then get human drivers to respond to it all in good time.

    • Harry Holden says:

      3 Aug3 August 09:25

      Wouldn’t TFL rather push people onto the EL given the cost differential from central London? Same journey, similar time but 4 or 5 times the cost.

      Why would TFL want to make the cheap service any faster?

      • Rob says:

        3 Aug3 August 09:54

        EL is aimed at those travelling in from outside. I’ve only used it a handful of times for Zone 1 to Zone 1 because the platforms are so deep that it eats up any time saving from using the existing lines.

        • Alex Sm says:

          3 Aug3 August 10:51

          Depends on the route and the exits/entrances you use. Could still be faster for journeys like Bond Street to Farringdon

      • ChrisBCN says:

        3 Aug3 August 10:15

        Harry, making it faster is about running more trains to give capacity, it is not about making it faster to Heathrow (the Heathrow stations are only 3 stations out of about 40 – far more passenger journeys are commuting to/from the centre, not to/from Heathrow)

      • Nick says:

        3 Aug3 August 10:30

        @Harry you’re assuming the trains were only built to serve Heathrow. There’s no possibility to funnel anyone in Southgate or Sudbury onto Crossrail.

      • Muzer says:

        3 Aug3 August 11:05

        Most of that cost difference goes to Heathrow themselves. They own the mainline rail tunnels, TfL own the Piccadilly Line tunnels. I wouldn’t be surprised if when all’s said and done the money TfL actually get from Liz Line vs Piccadilly Line isn’t too different.

      • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

        3 Aug3 August 12:05

        Where do you get “4 or 5 times the cost” from?

        I locked a Tottenham Court Road to Heathrow

        By tube x £ 5.60
        By Lizzie – £ 13.30

        That’s not 4 or 5 times the cost.

        Don’t make stuff up that’s easily checked!

        • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

          3 Aug3 August 12:18

          * looked at via the TFL single fare finder

    • Sharka says:

      3 Aug3 August 12:34

      TfL has required to be bailed out by additional direct government subsidy in recent years amounting to several billions, and these underlie the capital investment: “This longer-term settlement includes over £1.1 billion (bn) of additional grant funding until March 2024 for London transport, which will unlock almost £3.6bn worth of critical infrastructure investment, with a number of projects set to revolutionise travel across the capital.” (Written Statement to Parliament, 5 September 2022, Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP).

      I am unsure that Rob’s prose, in any case, is “criticism of the government”: the only reason that this additional money is required is because TfL has financial problems that are the problem of the Mayor of London – consequently, any criticism, express or implied. is reasonably of the Mayor (whose broader policies, such as ULEZ, are criticized broadly, even by the Parliamentary Labour Party).

    • northernline says:

      3 Aug3 August 18:28

      I’m surprised people are saying Rob is complaining about the government. I always find that he keeps politics out of articles and that HFP is a site which people of all political persuasions can enjoy.

      Capital funding has always been (partially at least) met by central government, as well as from the GLA.

  • dougzz99 says:

    3 Aug3 August 08:09

    But don’t all taxpayers fund things outside their area?

  • Rich says:

    3 Aug3 August 08:15

    Look on the bright side, the trains are future proofed for when the signal investment is made.

    • Alex Sm says:

      3 Aug3 August 10:52

      The only positive comment in the whole thread, wow!

    • Londonsteve says:

      3 Aug3 August 13:16

      Well indeed, the main improvements from a passenger perspective arise from the fact that these new trains will offer far more comfort and a greater sense of space. I don’t mind if the frequency and journey times are unaltered, long as these new trains enter service to replace the existing (charming and stalwart though they may be) old clunkers.

  • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

    3 Aug3 August 11:57

    TfL basically funds its day to day operations from fares. Other than covid recovery grants (which has lots of conditions) government does not fund these.

    Government gives grants for capital schemes.

    • Sharka says:

      3 Aug3 August 23:38

      TfL has had an annual deficit in the billions that central government has subsidized for years: it does not “fund its day to day operations” from fares (and I doubt that any public transportation system anywhere does).

  • Steve says:

    3 Aug3 August 12:28

    I love these arguments. It’s straight from the thinking, “I can get £500 but my neighbour will get £600 so I will rather take nothing.”

    Tourists spent around £14.2 billion in London in 2022. That’s after pandemic. Tourism is billions worth of industry and London takes the big chunk of it.

    I would argue it’s normal and actually right for govt to support this. PL is a part of how you get tourist into London. Some of these tourist surely visit other parts of the UK.

    It’s the same argument as I am not disabled so why to support ramps to places? I don’t receive any benefits, so why should I support it? I don’t have cancer so why should I support its treatment. I don’t work in car factories so why should I support tax breaks for car factories…I guess you got the point.

    That, of course, doesn’t mean other parts of the UK shouldn’t be improved as well. But…omg

    • Thegasman says:

      3 Aug3 August 16:28

      Eh?! I don’t think the state of the Piccadilly Line rolling stock features that highly when overseas tourists are considering where to visit.

      VAT refunds or lack of would be an area the government could make a big difference though.

      • Londonsteve says:

        4 Aug4 August 16:40

        But it serves as a first impression for an awful lot of people and it doesn’t create a particularly good one. That can impact upon things like the likelihood of repeat visits and even potentially influence a decision about making an investment. If the UK’s infrastructure looks ropey, in part because someone has experienced such charabancs from Heathrow, they could lose confidence that their future employees or finished products can move around effectively.

• Rob says:

  3 Aug3 August 08:11

  The airport didn’t send us anything, easyJet did.

• littlewood86 says:

  3 Aug3 August 13:30

  Didn’t realise the government had so many supporters; wondering if these same supporters will still be here for the governments next ludicrous decision?? Don’t worry i don’t think we will have to wait long!

• Chris says:

  3 Aug3 August 14:23

  Glasgow Easyjet twilight check-in is a nice idea but useless if it is only for flights departing <8:30am the next day. Almost all of the flights operated by Easyjet at that time of the morning are domestics (LGW, STN, BHX etc). I imagine the majority of those pax have hand luggage only or limited baggage.

  This would be far more useful to take the stress out of the family-type holiday to ALC, TFS, KGS etc. All of those operate later in the day and wouldn't be eligible.

  Jet2 on the other hand…they have many early morning flights to sun destinations popular with families and twilight check-in will be much more attractive.

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