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Amex won’t give half a thought on this refund (which of course, as others explained, is not MS; MS by definition wouldn’t been refunded to the same source of funds).
I think the main reason I’m worried about it is that the £1000 spend will have assisted in hitting my spend target for the 90k upgrade points I had. If they refund that, Amex might try to take the 90k MR away.
That is a risk indeed. I would transfer the points to be honest, as if you lose them you won’t have any recourse (if your initial period already passed).
For future reference, if you can’t change your DD online call Octopus and ask it to be £1. Keep it at £1 regardless. During winter if you need to top up using a card, Amex or otherwise. I use Zilch to get 2% back+Avoid Barclaycard via Curve to also get Avios.
£5 to join Zilch here:
https://zilch.onelink.me/x8EV/sqywp583Hmm, If I set up a £5 DD and let it be taken, will future payments then go to my bank account, or only £5 worth?
I am not sure even a DD of £5 will be taken as you are in credit from your export of solar electricity. Same issue with simply paying £50 by bank transfer as suggested by @ChrisBCN.
I suspect you are going to continue getting refunds to your Amex until the refunds exceed what was paid by Amex.
If being in credit meant that no DD is taken, then most people would have their DDs taken only once in a while. The whole billing system in the UK is made to leave everyone in credit all the time by default, and no stopping of DD regardless of the amount you are on credit.
On your last paragraph totally correct, that’s how they do it. And that’s why no MS with Octopus.
if I get more refunded it will, according to Octopus, continue to go to Amex, as, in their opinion, Amex is the “Source of funds”. I’m also worried Amex will consider this MS.
Refunds are not spending. This is the opposite of manufactured spending. You’re actively losing points with each refund, but it doesn’t sound like it’s worth the hassle of closing the card over the relatively small amount of points you’ll be losing. Amex won’t care about the refunds at all.
An example of manufactured spending, if it were possible, would be to pay £1000 every month into Octopus and then have them refund it to your bank account. Then it goes from your bank account to Amex, and back to Octopus again, etc etc.
Amex might claw back the 90k bonus you mentioned though if you go under the threshold, if you think that’s a risk you should perhaps put some other spending on the card to keep it over the threshold (such as loading up an Amazon account, or buying Sainsbury’s vouchers, etc)
With Amex bonuses, I thought only refunding the specific transaction that takes you over a spend threshold would cause the bonus to be reversed. Which is why there was a recommendation to spend very close to the threshold and then buy something such as a drink that you will definitely not refund when you want to trigger the bonus.
Regarding Octopus, between 2019-2022 there was a flaw in the system which I exploited.
Upon signing up, my first DD was £120. After overpaying by Amex and being in credit, I was able to change the DD to £2 on their website. Although I was £200 in credit, it only let me refund £122 to bank, that amount being the total I had paid by DD (not by Amex).
After further Amex payments and two more £2 DD payments again being several hundred in credit, it let me refund £126 to bank, that is the new total amount I had ever paid by DD. 2 months later it let me refund £130. I was able to do this again and again until someone at Octopus noticed.
After I had MSed about £2000, they refused the next refund request with an email saying because I had already refunded everything I had ever paid by DD all further refunds would be by card (not sure if this message was generic or personal).
At that point, it appeared that Octopus would still let you refund everything you had ever paid by DD to your bank account, such that you would have only ever paid them by card. It looks like this has changed again and they now insist on refunding everything you have ever paid by card first, such that you would have only ever paid them by DD, and only then will they refund to bank.
if I get more refunded it will, according to Octopus, continue to go to Amex, as, in their opinion, Amex is the “Source of funds”. I’m also worried Amex will consider this MS.
Refunds are not spending. This is the opposite of manufactured spending. You’re actively losing points with each refund, but it doesn’t sound like it’s worth the hassle of closing the card over the relatively small amount of points you’ll be losing. Amex won’t care about the refunds at all.
An example of manufactured spending, if it were possible, would be to pay £1000 every month into Octopus and then have them refund it to your bank account. Then it goes from your bank account to Amex, and back to Octopus again, etc etc.
Amex might claw back the 90k bonus you mentioned though if you go under the threshold, if you think that’s a risk you should perhaps put some other spending on the card to keep it over the threshold (such as loading up an Amazon account, or buying Sainsbury’s vouchers, etc)
You say this is the opposite of manufactured spending, but that’s not quite right. What’s happening in this case (and with this type of refund) is fairly obviously entirely the product of manufactured spending. Amex isn’t quite as stupid as some posters are suggesting. Whether they care will depend on the overall spending pattern.
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