BA cancelling flight BA164 and refuses to pay expenses – what are my options?
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Hi
I had a flight booked on BA0164 routing TLV-LHR on the 10 May.
We arrived at the airport and were told by a lady (she said she is BA repressive in Israel) that due to the military situation at that time , the inbound flight from UK which was due to take us back home did land in Larnaca,
Cyprus, and will not continue its route due to the situation , therefore everyone should make alternative arrangements. I (so did lots of fellow passengers) booked at our own expenses alternative flights, Managed to secure a seat in the Virgin flight which departed just an hour later than BA scheduled. we received from the representative a BA Cancelation later confirming it was cancelled.After landing in LHR we found out the BA flight did go with a delay of about 3hours (arriving in London less than 3hrs delay), When trying to contact BA about reimbursement of alternative flight expenses (£740) they have been very rude , and the first couple of communications i had with them was looking like they had a draft and they just copy pasted it to my claim as a response… nothing to say a bout the actual story … until they said in the end they are giving e £210 (i suppose that s the the airport taxs) but nothing more than that and its final decision ,and if wish i should log a complain with CEDR
BA most of the times said they cant say any cancelation on the above flight but a long delay. Even dough they admitted they received similar complaints about this particular flight which indicated something actual happened
Is there anything to do ? or should i go directly to small claims court?My case is different than usual, because in the end the flight did go , although we recviced a cancelation later and been told by BA staff it was cancelled and on this basis we booked a new ticket
My claim is not about EU261 Compensation claim but about the expenses I accrued in direct result of BA ground staff handlingHappy to hear any thoughts on this guys!
Thanks
I can’t follow your story clearly and if you’re going to MCOL then you’ll need to have a simple and clear timeline of events.
Did you check in for your original BA flight?
@JECHIEL it’s a bit messy if a cancellation morphed into a long delay. It would appear that BA can safely rely upon ‘extraordinary circumstances’ in respect of compensation, but still leaves them potentially on the hook for rerouting expenses and it doesn’t appear you incurred any ‘right to care’ expenses. A bit may depend on the precise wording of the cancellation letter you say you received (and whether it was generic or specific to your flight). The impression you give is that you went and booked yourself on Virgin without giving BA the opportunity to reroute you. While that is entirely understandable it could compromise your claim per the EC261 guidelines and the CAA’s CAP2155 guidance to airlines at 6.6 –
“Passengers, for their part, should give the airline a reasonable opportunity to identify and offer a re-routing option. In the CAA’s view, it should therefore rarely be reasonable for affected passengers to make their own arrangements to re- route themselves.”
@JECHIEL says they were told by the BA rep to make their own arrangements so it sounds as though re-routing was ruled out at the start. I would have thought that if a letter was handed out stating that the flight was, in fact, cancelled, it shouldn’t be expected that pax would then hang around to check that it wasn’t actually just delayed.
Obviously it would be helpful to see a more detailed account of the incident.
As the flight was supposed to originate in Israel the OP should look to the Israeli equivalent of the EU/UK 261 regulation to see if it helps them with their case
I understand there is an Israeli enforcement body for their regulation that does actual enforcement.
The OP may benefit from a look at the El Al board on flyer talk as there will be threads on there on the Israeli regulation.
And a look at the BA board may find other passengers asking about the flight as well.
I referenced Israel’s Aviation Services Law yesterday in a different thread, but it doesn’t offer any greater assistance here than UK261. The only issues to be determined here are a) whether the OP gave BA sufficient opportunity to reroute and b) what, precisely, the BA representative told the OP to do and here the story isn’t the same at the start of the post as at the end. Also, if this letter (the timing of which is unclear) said flight cancelled, go and rebook yourself then he is fine but it’s unlikely. If just relying on what was said initially, that may be problematic, particularly when it would appear there may also be a language barrier.
@JECHIEL says they were told by the BA rep to make their own arrangements so it sounds as though re-routing was ruled out at the start. I would have thought that if a letter was handed out stating that the flight was, in fact, cancelled, it shouldn’t be expected that pax would then hang around to check that it wasn’t actually just delayed.
Obviously it would be helpful to see a more detailed account of the incident.
What BA rep said is still hearsay unless there is a concrete proof.
I would also like to know at what point the cancellation letter was received and the exact contents and whether OP actually checked in whether online or at the airport.
I can see from FR24 that the flight was delayed on arrival by less than 3hrs.
Hi
Cancelation later basically contained info saying we should make our own alternative arrangements like hotels etc as this flight is not going to fly today.The problem with my case as explained is that formally and on all official tracking sources it shows only the delaying part and that is was diverted to Larnaca and then redirected to TLV but they don’t contain any ifo not what happened in the airport, As myself there were about roughly 80 People who booked this alternative flight.
Mater of fact, I spoke to some of the fellow passenger’s who arrived at check-in later than me that BA ground staff did actually rebook them onto this virgin flight but i wasn’t offered any flight
My main concern why i don’t want to go to SCC is that I don’t have suffiecnt evidence as this letter is basic and does not contain any specific flight number etc (but there are plenty of people who went through this so might be worth to make one big claim)From what you say, the letter (the timing of which we don’t know) didn’t say you could book alternative flights. It also appears, again from what you say, that BA did rebook a considerable number of people onto the Virgin flight and those people wouldn’t have paid any extra. Unfortunately, you went rogue, paying for a ticket without going through the motions, so it will be fairly difficult to make a successful case at CEDR or MCOL, but BA should refund the full cost of the cancelled flight. In this country it’s quite difficult to bring a group claim.
From what you say, the letter (the timing of which we don’t know) didn’t say you could book alternative flights. It also appears, again from what you say, that BA did rebook a considerable number of people onto the Virgin flight and those people wouldn’t have paid any extra. Unfortunately, you went rogue, paying for a ticket without going through the motions, so it will be fairly difficult to make a successful case at CEDR or MCOL, but BA should refund the full cost of the cancelled flight. In this country it’s quite difficult to bring a group claim.
At time when i was at check in desk (roughly 14:45 Local time) They were not offering any flights. Even tough in the paper it only mentioned regarding hotels, the staff told us to book alternative flights (which there is no proof to present of , unfortyntely)
You mention you are going to be paid £210 and think that is the taxes for the flight you didn’t take.
What cabin / class were you booked in for the BA flight? And was this a return journey? Was this the outbound?
I suspect that from what you wrote you were travelling in World Traveller ie economy class and BA intends to refund the cost of one sector ie TLV to LHR. This intention is not half the cost paid since UK APD is quite a significant portion of an economy class return ticket.
I also think you mistook the communication that the flight was delayed and instead thought the flight had been cancelled. I know you claim you were told that it was a cancellation but the letter you mention seems not to say this and instead suggests that you book a hotel and go get refreshments.
That said I find it slightly odd that you would be directed to book a hotel for the night if instead the intention was that the flight would operate but with a delay. Although perhaps what BA meant was the flight would still be operating but only the following day.
What you should have done is at check in say I need to get to LHR ASAP and is there an opportunity to be rebooked onto any other flights going today? You did not do this so your case is weakened.
I suggest you write back to BA highlighting the letter telling passengers to book a hotel for the night since that suggests that at the point the letter was issued BA cancelled the flight rather than merely delayed it. I think on balance however that your claim will be denied.
A final point is do you have any travel insurance that might cover the extra cost you incurred?
You mention you are going to be paid £210 and think that is the taxes for the flight you didn’t take.
What cabin / class were you booked in for the BA flight? And was this a return journey? Was this the outbound?
I suspect that from what you wrote you were travelling in World Traveller ie economy class and BA intends to refund the cost of one sector ie TLV to LHR. This intention is not half the cost paid since UK APD is quite a significant portion of an economy class return ticket.
I also think you mistook the communication that the flight was delayed and instead thought the flight had been cancelled. I know you claim you were told that it was a cancellation but the letter you mention seems not to say this and instead suggests that you book a hotel and go get refreshments.
I have gotten back 200 GBP from AMEX Gold axa insurance
It was clearly a cancelation letter as many passengers did same as me after receiving this letter .
Furthermore, my brother which was on same booking as me had only managed to secure next day flight and had to stay in a hotel , they didn’t want to reimburse hotel costs eitherIs that £200 from Amex in addition to the £210 (from BA)? In total that means you will get £410 back from your £740 outlay? I think you’re going to have to accept that you will be out of pocket to the tune of £340.
You also claimed on travel insurance which further weakens the case as you will have to disclose this both to your insurer (if you received extra money from BA) and at MCOL. These are the kind of details that are crucial and as I said initially we need a clear and simple timeline.
What happened to others is irrelevant to your case.
@JDB for future ref. Is it admissable to record video/audio the conversations you have with airline reps?
@JDB for future ref. Is it admissable to record video/audio the conversations you have with airline reps?
It would depend on the country you are in, but in general, no not without the permission of the other party. I would be quite wary anyway; if discovered, it could cause very extreme responses in some people and in many jurisdictions. You really shouldn’t need any sort of recording to make a successful claim.
Also, as @meta helpfully pointed out above, it’s important to distinguish between first hand evidence and hearsay evidence. Many people here seem to think that because someone said, for example, that crew sickness was the cause of a delay (ie hearsay), they suddenly have a claim from the EC261 ATM.
This thread is unfortunately an extreme example of exactly how not to go about dealing with what would have been a valid claim in Israel and the UK (or no claim needed at all) if handled correctly.
You can record the other party without their knowledge, it’s just not admissible evidence. However, you are allowed to present a contemporaneous notes as evidence. After recording you can go over and transcribe in your own words what was said, put a date and time of and to whom you’ve spoken to and these are your notes. These will still need to be confirmed by the agent/airline, but it can cause quite a shock to the other party and in my experience they’ll settle.
This thread is unfortunately an extreme example of exactly how not to go about dealing with what would have been a valid claim in Israel and the UK (or no claim needed at all) if handled correctly.
Indeed and it’s a classic example of information creep where every post by the OP seemingly adds more details that changes the answers
I reiterate my suggestion that the OP has a look at the BA board on flyer talk where it’s far more likely that other passengers will have posted about this flight and who may provided corroborating information over what the BA Rep told passengers as to whether this was a cancellation or a long delay etc
We had a BA flight TLV LHR cancelled and BA saud their decision of no compensation was final. I took them to small claims court and won. They had to pay us for our replacement tickets and the flight compensation rate of £520 per ticket cancelled and the court fees
I guess they are banking that most won’t bother to go to this option so they only payout to those who do.We had a BA flight TLV LHR cancelled and BA saud their decision of no compensation was final. I took them to small claims court and won. They had to pay us for our replacement tickets and the flight compensation rate of £520 per ticket cancelled and the court fees
I guess they are banking that most won’t bother to go to this option so they only payout to those who do.the diffrence between our case and yours is that your flight was cancelled so there isn’t really a way out, But here in reality it wasn’t cancelled but they said it is cancelled so I don’t really have strong ground in court
Whilst the timeline is a little unclear, I have sympathy for the OP. I have had a similar experience. Evening long haul flight cancelled. Flight later worked in and left the following morning. These are the points that made the difference.
1. Does the letter state the flight is delayed or cancelled.
In my case it stated cancelled. The flight was later reinstated but with a long delay. When the airline in question denied the flight had ever been cancelled, I asked them to confirm that they would state in small claims court that the letter (a copy of which I sent them) had not been issued. They later stated that the (outsourced) staff member had acted of their own initiative and wrongly provided the letter. I pointed out that it was irrelevant that the order had not come from the airline themselves – their appointed agent working on their behalf had informed passengers in an official capacity. It was therefore an internal matter and externally that flight was cancelled at the point I tried to check-in.2. Does the letter say that you must contact BA to be re-routed, or return for a flight the following day?
I don’t agree that what the BA agent said is hear-say. It was delivered in an official capacity, and if BA cannot prove that it wasn’t said, the small claims court will look favourably. If however, the letter contradicts.3. What happens to other passengers does matter.
If it was only a 3hr delay in the end, then why did the local agent start rebooking people on Virgin? BA will have records that their agent rebooked other passengers. This is not the action that follows from a 3hr delay. If you go to the small claims court, and put this in your submission, BA will need to respond to it. If they did rebook people then it supports your argument.4. You have received some compensation / insurance.
Make sure you are transparent about this. If your claim from BA is successful then you need to pay the insurance monies back. If you go to the small claims court (for the difference between what BA have already paid and your out of pocket expense) and are awarded the remainder, you need to pay the insurance sum back. Under the various pieces of legislation/terms you must not profit out of this.5. Its likely the reason you were given for the cancellation/delay was incorrect.
I’d be surprised if, having diverted to Larnaca due to a military concern in Israel, BA would then give the all clear to proceed 3 hours later. This seems a strange timeline. It is likely that the plane diverted for some other reason.Finally, this won’t be easy or quick. It took me months. The first thing to do though, as others have pointed out, is to write the timeline of what what happened. Read, update, read update until everything is included. Do not elaborate even if tempted. If you waited 5 minutes for a response, don’t put 15. Include locations (I was handed the letter at the BA check-in), if you recall, was the flight listed on the departure board as delayed, cancelled, please enquire? Do you remember the agent? Even if you can’t remember their name, can you describe them. Do you have any confirmation showing the time you booked the Virgin flight? e.g. I was able to prove that I had rebooked my flight before the airline reinstated it.
Ok
This is excellent adviceMy experience of BA and indeed any EU airline is that the first response is always no.
The flight was clearly disrupted and being told by BA to sort yourself out is common practice. Consequently they must show, on the balance of probability that they did not cancel the flight and advise you accordingly.
No one who arrives to check in for a booked flight voluntarily pops off and pays £700 more. Therefore on balance of probability the OP is likely telling the truth.
The approach is simple. EU261 claim to BA
Once there is deadlock escalate to MCOL.Personally I would also and simultaneously follow the Israeli process too. That’s because MCOL can sometimes err only for people to go to small claims court and win. Do cover all basis.
Good luck
Whilst the timeline is a little unclear, I have sympathy for the OP. I have had a similar experience. Evening long haul flight cancelled. Flight later worked in and left the following morning. These are the points that made the difference.
1. Does the letter state the flight is delayed or cancelled.
In my case it stated cancelled. The flight was later reinstated but with a long delay. When the airline in question denied the flight had ever been cancelled, I asked them to confirm that they would state in small claims court that the letter (a copy of which I sent them) had not been issued. They later stated that the (outsourced) staff member had acted of their own initiative and wrongly provided the letter. I pointed out that it was irrelevant that the order had not come from the airline themselves – their appointed agent working on their behalf had informed passengers in an official capacity. It was therefore an internal matter and externally that flight was cancelled at the point I tried to check-in.2. Does the letter say that you must contact BA to be re-routed, or return for a flight the following day?
I don’t agree that what the BA agent said is hear-say. It was delivered in an official capacity, and if BA cannot prove that it wasn’t said, the small claims court will look favourably. If however, the letter contradicts.3. What happens to other passengers does matter.
If it was only a 3hr delay in the end, then why did the local agent start rebooking people on Virgin? BA will have records that their agent rebooked other passengers. This is not the action that follows from a 3hr delay. If you go to the small claims court, and put this in your submission, BA will need to respond to it. If they did rebook people then it supports your argument.4. You have received some compensation / insurance.
Make sure you are transparent about this. If your claim from BA is successful then you need to pay the insurance monies back. If you go to the small claims court (for the difference between what BA have already paid and your out of pocket expense) and are awarded the remainder, you need to pay the insurance sum back. Under the various pieces of legislation/terms you must not profit out of this.5. Its likely the reason you were given for the cancellation/delay was incorrect.
I’d be surprised if, having diverted to Larnaca due to a military concern in Israel, BA would then give the all clear to proceed 3 hours later. This seems a strange timeline. It is likely that the plane diverted for some other reason.Finally, this won’t be easy or quick. It took me months. The first thing to do though, as others have pointed out, is to write the timeline of what what happened. Read, update, read update until everything is included. Do not elaborate even if tempted. If you waited 5 minutes for a response, don’t put 15. Include locations (I was handed the letter at the BA check-in), if you recall, was the flight listed on the departure board as delayed, cancelled, please enquire? Do you remember the agent? Even if you can’t remember their name, can you describe them. Do you have any confirmation showing the time you booked the Virgin flight? e.g. I was able to prove that I had rebooked my flight before the airline reinstated it.
@Paul – I’m not sure whether you had actually read the thread so as to understand how the OP unfortunately compromised his case and fell squarely within the ‘get out’ clause for airlines within the Interpretative Guidelines before you proffered the above advice? Pursuing a case at MCOL also requires a certain amount of skill and tenacity; it’s never handed to you on a plate.
More importantly however, the advice simultaneously to pursue MCOL and the process under the Israeli Aviation Services Law is grossly negligent. BA will obviously know that’s what the passenger is attempting to do and will seek dismissal of both cases and ask for costs at MCOL with a fair likelihood of success.
@Moley @Paul I wish you read properly the whole thread.
The flight was disrupted, but as I mentioned above Flightradar24 shows the delay on arrival was less than 3hrs. Therefore, on that basis there is no compensation due. Granted there might discrepancies with official records, but doubt BA and ATC filed it as more than 3hrs.
It’s plain simple hearsay that BA agent rebooked other people on Virgin or other airlines. You can’t rely on other people in court. On top, in any case each case is different. For example, these people had an onward flight from LHR and would have missed it even with 1hr or 2hr delay so they got rebooked on the most convenient flight for them.
You will need to provide proof that the agent actually said to buy new tickets on another airline. Please enlighten us, how do you do that? BA might just provide written statement from the said agent that they said something entirely different. Therefore, it’s hearsay.
I also doubt the letter said to buy new tickets as I have seen these letters before and it says for flights you need to log in and check whether you have already been rebooked/change flight or contact customer services. It’s only pay and claim for right to care (accommodation, food and communication costs).
Given all these issues and the need to provide concrete evidence of what happened, OP does not stand a chance against BA. They will most certainly fight this case as they are armed with more evidence than the OP.
@meta the voice of sense!
I’m wondering if the OP has even popped over to the BA flier talk board about this.
If there was going to be any traction about this flight it would more than likely generate a thread that. And if not the OP could start one with a clear and concise statement of the issues.
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