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Oh for the days of w book of coupons , remember the carbon paper flimsy types , then the printed cardboard. A J coupon was as good as cash, just turn up at any airline if they had space on you’d get.
When I was working even after coupons replaced by E-ticket changed flights left right and centre, just rung up BA. No checking of numbers , no time to busy working.
Now life is more straightforward, I book tickets on line , mainly Avios longhaul, sometimes cash. I always check E-ticket receipt and itinerary in MMB and that I can book seats on every leg, I always book seat as soon as i book ticket. That has never failed since I’ve retired. The idea that you need to go on Finnair to check BA numbers is taking belt and Braces to extreme. Something I wouldn’t think of , never mind average Joe.
However to check you’ve paid is essential.
I did have problem described a covid reroute when Lufthansa hadn’t ticketed a Singapore airlines leg, but that was obvious when couldn’t book seats.
Dear Mr @Froggee
While I am sad to learn that I have been usurped by an upstart airline on your esteemed cheek, I am more concerned about the misspelling and how that will be addressed. What favour did Virgin Australia do for you?Love
JDBOh @JDB you make me giggle. On the day I streak at Murrayfield, I do not wish for 67,000 people to ask “what is this VS, why does he love versus?”
Yes I’m sure the 1% who obsess about IATA airline codes would quietly approve of using the correct two letters but in your parlance it’s de facto vs de jure innit?
As for the favour that Virgin Atlantic did for me, when Kermit was very, very poorly on holiday and it was clear on Sunday morning there was not a chance we could fly home that evening, their incredibly helpful phone agent guided me towards their communicable diseases policy and changed all of our tickets (three redemption, one cash) to Wednesday, without charge but with much kindness.
Without this act I would have had to choose between:
– option one: a travel insurance claim (which would have necessitated dragging Kermit to a medical facility to be assessed, have a (not) fit to fly note issued and made available to our insurers, and only one parent being allowed to stay with the other leaving that night with Freddo)
– option two: writing off our tickets and forking out 310,000 Virgin points and approximately $4,000 to buy replacement tickets for the four of us.
Given Virgin Atlantic’s kindness we were able to go for option three which was stay together as a family and travel home as a family. The additional £2,000 or so of expenses (Airbnb + replacement British Airways flights) which are non claimable from insurance given our preference to do what was best for the child/family was within my financial pain tolerance.
In case you are wondering, Kermit is on the mend but still tired, grumpy and not quite himself. But he is playing with next door’s kids so he can’t be too wabbit.
Apologies – off topic but you did ask.
Slightly OT with a different airline. I’ve just dug out my KLM booking on Virgin. It says;
Flying Blue Booking Confirmation
Thankyou for your booking
This document confirms the creation of your electronic ticket. It is not a ticket
Your reservation number xxxxxxGoing then onto the Virgin site
Booking reference xxxxxx
Passengers details, including our eTicket numbers.(Starting 074)I will be highly miffed, if this is not acceptable at the check in.
@Froggee – gosh, I’m so sorry to hear of your family travails but very pleased to hear Kermit is now better. What a nightmare for you, but all’s well that ends well and you got the
t-shirttattoo to prove it.@Mikeact – I’m sure you will be fine. Virgin seem like such a bunch of jokers, it’s quite remarkable they have so explicitly made the distinction between booking confirmations/receipts and eTickets but it’s certainly quite helpful to spell it out so that the passenger ought to know something additional is needed beyond just the confirmation.
At least BA gives E-ticket numbers on email receipt
Does everyone not have a spreadsheet that tracks in detail flights, hotels, hire cars, excursions, transfers etc? On that spreadsheet are balances for amongst other things, Avios, Hilton, IHG, Virgin FC and each transaction is checked in detail. No, only me?
Does everyone not have a spreadsheet that tracks in detail flights, hotels, hire cars, excursions, transfers etc? On that spreadsheet are balances for amongst other things, Avios, Hilton, IHG, Virgin FC and each transaction is checked in detail. No, only me?
Me!
I have a spreadsheet tracking all my points.
I also have one spreadsheet for each trip detailing every aspect of the trip. It is colour coded to highlight if unpaid, part paid or paid in full.
My OH thinks I am a geek. She is correct, but it has always ensured that everything goes to plan. Hopefully this will continue.Well this 7 pages of arguing seems to be two groups (or one group and one individual 😀 ) arguing two different things that only marginally overlap.
JDB seems to be arguing that it is wise and sensible for people here to check they have a valid ticket issued (and that money has been paid). That is unarguably correct and good advice that should be taken – and might even be reasonably expected from the ultra-savvy frequent flying (and slightly older) group that populates the majority of HfP posters.
Others seem to be arguing that in the event that money has been taken and your booking has appeared on the airline app, together with the ability to even choose your seat on that specific flight, that well over 90% of averagely informed travellers would assume they are good to go and are quite reasonable to do so. I think this is correct and pretty hard to argue too.
JDB – I think where you may be off base is your insistence that any and every reasonable person would and should ALWAYS check they had “a ticket” well before travel, which does mark you down as being very clearly of a pre-electronic-device generation. These days all sorts of things are effectively ticketed via an Email confirmation and appearing in an app. Indeed in a highly comparable case, I’ve just done an international ferry crossing where no “tickets” (E or physical) are ever issued to, or seen by, the passenger prior to arrival at the port (the system working entirely on booking confirmations, apps, passports, and numberplates). In some concertgoing apps, the app is programmed to only display something equivalent to “a ticket” as you near the venue on the relevant date – presumably to hinder resale/touting. The clear separation of “a ticket” from all other communication, that you perceive, simply no longer exists in much (most?) of modern life.
To put it into parlance I hope strikes a legal chord: remember that the intelligent and reasonable flyer fresh off “The Clapham Omnibus” can be an inexperienced first time flyer – perhaps in their teens or twenties, who has only ever experienced this app-based world. They are armed with a clearly visible app booking dispensed by BA, a chosen seat number dispensed by BA, a valid passport attached to that booking, and their life experience so far of app-based entry. It comes to pass that they are unticketed and cannot board the plane. Now imagine a young and tech-savvy clone of Lord Denning, fresh off a modern Thornton vs Shoe Lane, deciding the case on who has acted reasonably and who has failed here. How would they rule? Do you think they would apportion fault to the traveller at all….?
There simply is no argument that this is anything other than a massive hole in IT leading to unnecessary passenger frustration and upset, and that any competitive company can and should close – or, at the very minimum, have a very easy and quick workaround to this issue that on the ground staff can and should implement in seconds.
Clearly if you’ve paid, got an Eticket receipt, checked itinerary is OK on APP, perhaps booked a seat as well , note the latter two steps are more than BA asks you to do, then you have a contract you’ve done your due diligence and expect it to be fulfilled or due compensation paid. The law is 100% on your side.
The check on Finnair to see all the virtual coupons, is for the 0.01% chance something very subtle has gone wrong, that fools above normal checks. Fine if that’s your thing, but it will not be needed 99.99% of the time , think of all the better things you could have been doing with time.
The problem the original poster had was he hadn’t paid, so staff at check-in could do nothing to fix it. It would be a different situation if he’d paid.
@TheSavageSquirrel – you make many valid points and a balanced perspective.
However, while I acknowledge I’m from the paper ticket era I just don’t buy the idea that a two part system – a separate receipt and ticket is remotely unusual in the modern era.
If I buy a train ticket online I receive an email confirmation/receipt and while that might help me avoid being prosecuted for fare evasion, it won’t get me through a ticket barrier. Similarly, we went to the Queen’s tennis. Multiple people want to see the QR code on the ticket that is entirely separate from the receipt. I am sure you have your own experiences.
There is a fairly obvious and valid reason for things to operate in this way – a firm needs to provide you with evidence of payment and the reassurance of a confirmation. That’s something that could be copied thousands of times but a ticket needs to be a one-off/unique document. It works in the cases you cite when there is something else unique such as a number plate or ID.
Air travel feels to me more serious than going to a concert or festival so why, however inexperienced I might be, would I think I don’t need a ticket but can instead rely on what is essentially a till receipt.
E-tickets are wondrous things but their issuance can go wrong though either IT or human error.
Also, who wants to be in the position of arguing reasonableness in front of a judge or at CEDR. Once you have reached that point, you are likely to have suffered a huge inconvenience for want of a small amount of time checking your e-ticket has been created and payment taken. You are also guaranteed not to get a judge or adjudicator of the calibre of Lord Denning. A very hassled, jaded District Judge hearing moans all day isn’t always that sympathetic in decisions that could go either way. Not so many decisions in the County Court get published, but there’s a fairly clear pattern and the passenger doesn’t always win; they are, to an extent, expected to look out for themselves. I think some of the cases we have seen reported on this thread and other threads recently are good but others have little prospect of success.
@Garethgerry – if your ticket has been changed or reissued the chances of error are very considerably higher than the 0.01% you cite.
When you say there are better things to do with one’s time than to check, we are talking less than the time to make a cup of coffee. I’ll go without the coffee and even at a good hourly billing rate, I consider it time well spent vs some of the delays experienced getting tickets fixed at the airport.
When tickets changed or reissued, I check new E ticket receipt and then check itinerary in APP again as I book the new seats. It’s never failed.
Just to re-iterate my earlier post, no contract existed since a price was never agreed (taxes, etc). This is very clear from the OP’s explanation of events (no call-back from BA). Yes, BA IT/CS was poor. BUT the OP knew he needed to pay taxes, etc and his “forgetfulness” is no defence. I think BA has shouldered their “share” of the blame, by (presumably) allowing the OP to travel the next day using Avios – unlikely there were any “real” Avios seat availability left. Asking for compensation/subsistence is pushing all the blame onto BA (IMHO).
You can’t be ticketed unless you have paid – kinda obvious. But you can make reservations – at least in the old days travel agents/managers did it all the time when building complex itineraries (and sometime also forgot to subsequently ticket all the legs). On a few occasions where I or BA have changed my travel plans (e.g. flight change) I will see 2 reservations for the same trip/leg in MMB – except the new one is ticketed and the old one is no longer ticketed). Both are still showing as having reserved seats.
Of course BA could have NOT reserved the seats whilst back-office (or whomever) calculated the taxes and fees, by which time the Avios availability has probably gone. I suppose the OP wouldn’t be happy about that either, but at least he wouldn’t have a ticketing problem 😉
Man am I glad I read this thread.
Had – or so I thought – a return booked for next year to Cancun, return was sorted on the phone, avios taken and I received an email congratulating me on using my companion voucher. I didn’t receive any other confirmation but had checked on the website and seen the return on there so assumed it was all hunky dory. After reading this I checked my credit card statement and the money had not been taken. Half hour on the phone and it’s all sorted but pretty sure had I not read this I would have ended up in the same situation as the OP.
To put it into parlance I hope strikes a legal chord: remember that the intelligent and reasonable flyer fresh off “The Clapham Omnibus” can be an inexperienced first time flyer – perhaps in their teens or twenties, who has only ever experienced this app-based world. They are armed with a clearly visible app booking dispensed by BA, a chosen seat number dispensed by BA, a valid passport attached to that booking, and their life experience so far of app-based entry. It comes to pass that they are unticketed and cannot board the plane. Now imagine a young and tech-savvy clone of Lord Denning, fresh off a modern Thornton vs Shoe Lane, deciding the case on who has acted reasonably and who has failed here. How would they rule? Do you think they would apportion fault to the traveller at all….?
^^^ 100% ^^^
If/when a passenger with a contract and evidence of a ticket (albeit one that doesn’t exist in BA’s backend) gets in front of a judge BA will loose. Contract law does not assume you are “nuts” not to double and triple check that the party you are contracting with is doing their bit. You are entitled to swan up to the airport and expect to get on the bleedin’ plane! And I have done so hundreds of times – when you fly frequently for work you absolutely do not check all the little details every time. If it shows in the app I’m going to the airport.
If BA are slow to collect money and/or avios that is, frankly, beside the point (and BA can and I’m sure do follow up on unpaid items after flight – I’m not suggesting anyone could or should be looking to exploit this as a means to get a “freebie”).
@memesweeper – I’m afraid you are living in a complete fantasy world as to the outcome of airline cases. And by the way it’s lose not loose.
The fact you have never encountered a problem of this nature – bookings not properly ticketed or not ticketed at all is completely irrelevant.
I and at least half a dozen other posters on this thread have, including the post immediately above yours. I was actually really delighted for that poster and it amply demonstrated the point that you apparently find so controversial.
Basically, you have two choices:
1) follow the consensus on this thread and the @memesweeper advice, don’t bother checking anything because it’s apparently so unobvious or difficult (and the court will fix everything), wait until the sh*t hits the fan, have your trip delayed and then rail against BA for not acting as your nanny and of course seek sympathy from similarly minded HfPers who will tell you how awful BA is and that it’s definitely a case for compensation, blah, blah, blah.
2) check your ticket and payment on booking and post any changes. If there’s any issue, call and get it fixed way in advance. Check in serenely, visit lounge, board flight and arrive at your destination.
Well, for me that’s not a difficult choice but it’s a free world if you wish to keep banging that square peg and enjoy visiting the County Court that is your prerogative.
@JDB; nobody here is a fantasist, is expecting BA to act as their nanny; that’s ridiculous and deliberately inflammatory, as are the unnecessary spelling corrections. I think the reason you have 7 pages of objections is that your posts and view seem to have a blindspot that you simply cannot move past that when the passenger has done everything right in the process of making a booking; goes on to carefully check that it shows up correctly in their online account (and they’ve even assigned them a specific seat and told them which one, for God’s sake) that your posts still seems to cast blame squarely on the passenger for a failing that is clearly not their own, and refuses to apportion any blame to BA or to sympathise with the passenger – whether that is what you intend to convey or not. 7 pages shows that I’m right on this.
There’s no doubt that you have an abundance of knowledge of the airline industry but this does seem to have blinded you to a reasonable expectation of what should be expected of passengers in terms of managing their booking. It reminds me of the pro-level sportsman being unable to see the issues beginners in that sport face, because they just cannot see that things that are so clear and simple to them that they require no conscious thought at all, are in fact complex and difficult to a beginner.
A reasonable approach would be – “yes BA’s IT system is crap for allowing this and is going to catch out some passengers out – particularly the inexperienced, or those with lots of flights where it would be very easy to miss one single untaken payment. Now we know that fact, please please do all check your bookings for the correct flight number – the rest of the world might get caught out but the HfP forum is a great resource and we’re all fortunate to be aware of this now – so at least now we have no excuses to fall into this trap!”. This may be broadly what you wished to say, but if so – honestly – you’ve failed; and it comes across far more as “any passenger that gets caught out by this is an idiot and deserves what they get”. Again – I’m sure that’s not what you were intending to convey – but I can assure you that’s how it comes across, and again, 7 pages of riled up people disagreeing with you proves this – they’re not ALL idiots – there is some issue in the form of the messsage.
It is possible to issue your advice above, very strongly, while AT THE SAME TIME not excusing poor BA back-end systems, blaming passengers, or pretty much insulting those who – very rightly – view them as poor, view this as BA’s error to correct, and are happy to state that view.
Frankly I’m not expecting any success from this post – 7 pages show that the blindspot about who is at fault here and the need to take the contrarian view in order to defend BA and blame the passenger is too firmly embedded, and moving to a position of criticism of BA would mean conceding ground from an entrenched position (which lawyers aren’t very good at 😀 ) so I’m tapping out of the thread after this.
@Dan1w above , the critical warning was that he didn’t receive the email eticket confirmation from BA.
If you don’t get this vital email, with a normal on-line booking within a few hours, or on a complicated telephone booking within a few days , get on the phone to BA. SIMPLE.
@TheSavageSquirrel – as I have repeatedly stated, I am not apportioning blame either to BA or the passenger as I think that’s utterly pointless. I know that on this site BA is always the bad guy. I’m no BA fan boy but it’s usually far more nuanced.
The simple fact is that no airline’s systems are perfect, errors in bookings and ticketing occur. The fact you can see your booking in the app and can book a seat is the most ridiculous thing to rely upon when it’s a ticket you need to be able to travel.
I was a beginner once and I was also taught personal responsibility by my parents, something seemingly not on trend for many here in the current era. As I am the principal family booker and travel organiser I take that responsibility seriously as I don’t want to let them down. I only need to check our bookings. You are saying BA should be sifting through everyone’s bookings to check for payment and correct ticketing. It will never happen so the passenger needs to make a small effort.
Yes, I occasionally have to cover for BA’s faults/failures through my own efforts is an absolute inevitability.
I’m afraid I have absolutely no sympathy with the approach you are adding your name to – BA should have got it right in the first place, so I can sit back complacently and let the crisis occur then clear up the mess. Great fun.
Also forgot to say always take Robs advice and book return Avios as separate ticket, then phone or email to sort out 241. This also makes checking Eticket easier as you get a separate email for each direction.
The simple fact is that no airline’s systems are perfect, errors in bookings and ticketing occur. The fact you can see your booking in the app and can book a seat is the most ridiculous thing to rely upon when it’s a ticket you need to be able to travel.
OK I’ve lied and will dive in once more.
Expecting a new passenger to understand that checking a visual of their booking sitting safely within their online account and a seat booking is not the same as “a ticket” may be blindingly obvious to you but simply is not and cannot be to a less experienced passenger – as per my post above. You are unable to see this – as per my sports coaching example. Calling checking that your booking sits correctly within your online account “the most ridiculous thing to rely upon” is also a good example of the passenger-blaming I also referenced. Go back to my ferry example, which IS identical yet there is no “ticket” to check you have secured (applies to foot passengers too by the way); it sits in your online account and you’re good to go. Like I said, it’s an intrinsic blindspot for you, so we’ll get nowhere here, but there we go – that’s the way it is and it was just a nice immediate example. Cheerio again – I’ll stick to my word this time!
To put it into parlance I hope strikes a legal chord: remember that the intelligent and reasonable flyer fresh off “The Clapham Omnibus” can be an inexperienced first time flyer – perhaps in their teens or twenties, who has only ever experienced this app-based world. They are armed with a clearly visible app booking dispensed by BA, a chosen seat number dispensed by BA, a valid passport attached to that booking, and their life experience so far of app-based entry. It comes to pass that they are unticketed and cannot board the plane. Now imagine a young and tech-savvy clone of Lord Denning, fresh off a modern Thornton vs Shoe Lane, deciding the case on who has acted reasonably and who has failed here. How would they rule? Do you think they would apportion fault to the traveller at all….?
^^^ 100% ^^^
If/when a passenger with a contract and evidence of a ticket (albeit one that doesn’t exist in BA’s backend) gets in front of a judge BA will loose. Contract law does not assume you are “nuts” not to double and triple check that the party you are contracting with is doing their bit. You are entitled to swan up to the airport and expect to get on the bleedin’ plane! And I have done so hundreds of times – when you fly frequently for work you absolutely do not check all the little details every time. If it shows in the app I’m going to the airport.
If BA are slow to collect money and/or avios that is, frankly, beside the point (and BA can and I’m sure do follow up on unpaid items after flight – I’m not suggesting anyone could or should be looking to exploit this as a means to get a “freebie”).
In OP’s case which is different to all other cases reported here, BA was supposed to call them back but didn’t, OP did not chase, no fares were agreed upon, no taxes were paid, and no Avios were deducted.
BA Contract of carriage – they can refuse boarding if the passenger does not have a valid ticket OR has not paid their fares. It’s really not beside the point :D. BA doing their bit is collecting fares, and OP doing their bit is paying the fares (or at least showing some attempt was made!)
For those that have paid Avios and were told taxes would be collected or vice-versa but BA didn’t (for whatever reason), that is on BA.
It’s still good practice for those who have read the last 7 pages to check that all is fine with your ticket. It takes 2 minutes of your time for peace of mind.
@TheSavageSquirrel – your ferry example is a complete red herring for the reasons previously set out. I am obviously a know nothing, but for those whose children have exam results coming up, I hope they will do better than you and the rest of the can’t be shagged to check blame BA brigade who will be failing their Travel GCSEs.
Not difficult, no blame needed just a simple fact –
1) no ticket, no fly
2) confirmations, receipts, app screens etc. are not travel documents. PS you also can’t travel internationally on a photocopy of your passport.
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