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Hi All,
As I’ve mentioned on others’ threads I’m in the process of trying to rearrange flights to Bangkok and back from Singapore on which BA cancelled the outbound last year. Flights were out in club in November and back in First in June 22. Booking is currently on hold following a rather frustrating conversation with them last november.
I have been traveling since December last year and getting through to them on the phone has not been feasible due to time differences/waits/cost etc. I’ve therefore pressed them to correspond via email. Today they sent me a response (from customer relations). I’ve extracted the relevant part here:
“You mentioned EU legislation and while you’re right to say that we have an obligation to offer you an alternative flight that is convenient for you, I’m afraid there are a number of other factors that must be considered. If we’re unable to operate a flight due to factors outside of our control and there isn’t a suitable alternative (another carrier or another route), then we can only offer you a full refund.
Your ticket is valid for travel until 17 August 2022. You need to take your outbound flight by this date but your return flight can be later. If we’re unable to offer you a suitable date or route change before this date, then we will arrange a full refund to go back to the original form of payment.”
My question is whether the best next step is the letter to the legal team in Waterside that others have previously recommended or whether there’s any intermediate step that I’d be better off taking.
Thanks all!
What are you asking BA to do for you rather than the refund? This reasonableness of this will be part of any future consideration by CEDR/MCOL. It shouldn’t really make a difference, but was it cash or Avios (inc a 241 or just for one person)?
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
It was a 241 booking. Originally made in 2020 but BA cancelled and I accepted a refund. Remade it for 2021 at 355 days ahead. Added return when it became available but it was reticketed when we upgraded the return to F (hence the August date they’re using for ticket validity)
Voucher would expire in September 2022. We want to rebook for a year after the original flight (give or take a few days).
“You need to take your outbound flight by this date”
There simply isn’t any case law I’m aware of that backs up this assertion. I’d stick to your demand in writing that they reroute you +1 year. Be prepared to fight. Be ready to send a letter before action to the legal department. They tried this on my Player 2 last year, and my sister as well, but in both cases ultimately caved in. I hope you don’t up needing to take legal action.
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
@Lula – thank you for the extra info. Not an easy situation; you had very valuable UK261 rights, but unfortunately you have slightly played into BA’s hands by waiting until now. The issue, as always, is actually enforcing your legal rights.
It sounds as though you are hoping to travel this autumn so leaving it until now means you wouldn’t get any CEDR/MCOL resolution until at least August, not much time to make new arrangements, fares are already much higher than they would have been when BA cancelled and will be higher still two/three months ahead of your planned trip.
With CEDR, it does seem to be a lottery – we have had three cases reported here in the last two weeks, two wins for BA and one for the passenger. That’s not a statistic, but shows that the outcome is far from certain. If you were to go to MCOL, it would cost you £800+ in application and hearing fees, again with an uncertain outcome. Many here say that MCOL should give you a better outcome because judges apply the law (which is correct of course), but the law is intentionally vague, so the term “at the passenger’s convenience” can be interpreted in different ways. My personal view, which many on here will disagree with is that by leaving it open for all this time you have exposed yourself to being considered a bit unreasonable in essentially expecting a permanent open ticket and rebooking at your leisure such that you will need to fight to counter that perception because it isn’t really what the statute says or intends.
The net effect of all this is that you need to write a Letter before Claim/letter of a lifetime to make BA cave. They are winning enough cases at MCOL and CEDR to make them a bit bullish, so this needs to be right. I would use @stillinthesun CEDR submissions as a template and carefully adjust to your circumstances, particularly as to why you need to travel a year later (rather than within ticket validity).
I would add to the letter that the phrase in the email to you “If we’re unable to operate a flight due to factors outside of our control and there isn’t a suitable alternative (another carrier or another route), then we can only offer you a full refund.” is palpable nonsense. The decision by BA to cease operating the BKK route was a purely commercial one and nothing to do with “factors outside of [y]our control”. TG and European carriers [list a few] continue to operate the route. Furthermore, the statutory entitlement to re-routing is not limited to BA flights or even Oneworld carriers, such that there are numerous suitable alternative flights to which your are entitled.
[Notwithstanding my comments above], I would also add at the relevant point that the statute says ““at the passenger’s convenience” and in the absence of any definition of that word, the rules of statutory interpretation will fall back on the dictionary definition of “convenient” in the OED is “convenient /kənˈviːnɪənt /▸ adjective fitting in well with a person’s needs, activities, and plans” [cut and paste properly; convenience as a derivation doesn’t offer quite such a neat wording, but you may want to look at that]. Thus any court will ineluctably determine that your case must succeed as BA cannot rely solely on its Conditions of Carriage; statute must prevail.
Further, that while BA has offered you a refund, the airline has in effect dramatically devalued refunds as a) they no longer offer FTVs that had the effect of extending 241 vouchers to end Sep 2023, and b) there has been a significant increase in BA carrier surcharges (£x at the time of purchase, now £y such that you would be £z out of pocket) and, in any event, the relevant seats are not available on Avios to replace the tickets originally purchased for flights subsequently cancelled by BA.
[As you would need to put a monetary value on any MCOL, you need to evidence some reasonable examples of replacement ticket costs; try to keep inside £10k for two tickets as realistically, if you have to escalate, I wouldn’t do MCOL as the punt is too big (but BA will be more concerned about this, so it must be the main threat) and the CEDR limit is £10k per booking]
Basically, the letter needs to make it very clear that you understand your rights, you really mean business and will take it to court if necessary. It must be concise and punchy, no emotion or unnecessary adjectives. This letter really matters as if it makes them cave, you get things resolved in 2-3 weeks without the stress, cost and lottery of escalation, so if you have a trusted friend who can read through it to sense/fact check it and give you honest feedback.
I hope others can add further points and really hope you sock it to them. Come back if you have any questions or need further help.
Thank you so much both. This is incredibly helpful. I totally understand your points about having waited until now. I suppose my counter points to that would be to rely on my conversation with them in November in which I explained my predicament and in which they agreed to put the booking “on hold.” At no point have they properly set out for me my legal rights. Added to which I am traveling until June (flights booked with BA) so enforcing my legal rights was neither top of mind (family commitments while traveling following family bereavements and covid separations) nor convenient given their call waiting times.
I will draft my letter before claim (which will be a hassle – currently in Jamaica with a broken laptop 🙄) and ask someone in the UK to send it.
Thanks again for responses and I will update the forum with any news in case it’s of use to others.
Hi. Me again. Thanks for help so far on this. Have written my LBA using many of the helpful points made in this thread and on others’ posts over recent months.
Just a couple of practical questions:
1) I understand best way is posting this letter recorded delivery. I’m currently overseas and won’t be back until June. I can get someone to print and post it for me, but that leaves me with a problem about return correspondence. I don’t have an address at present. Is it OK to ask for a response via email despite having corresponded by post? If not, can I use an address for correspondence that isn’t the one they have on file for me?
2) is there a named person to address the LBA to? Or should it just be the legal team?
Thanks!
Lula
Hi. Me again. Thanks for help so far on this. Have written my LBA using many of the helpful points made in this thread and on others’ posts over recent months.
Just a couple of practical questions:
1) I understand best way is posting this letter recorded delivery. I’m currently overseas and won’t be back until June. I can get someone to print and post it for me, but that leaves me with a problem about return correspondence. I don’t have an address at present. Is it OK to ask for a response via email despite having corresponded by post? If not, can I use an address for correspondence that isn’t the one they have on file for me?
2) is there a named person to address the LBA to? Or should it just be the legal team?
Thanks!
Lula
Address the letter to Chris Haynes, General Counsel, at BA. Send it by email as well. Personally I would send it by Special Delivery rather than Signed For as, although it will cost £5/6 more, you will get proper tracking and a signature whereas Signed For can be quite haphazard. In respect of the address, don’t give a UK address (put the one where you are assuming you are there for a bit) unless you have someone reliable in the UK who will scan and send to you; just put the address wherever you are and tell BA that, as you are travelling, they need to communicate by email. Tell them that as they already have all the facts, you require a response within 14 days, failing which you will issue proceedings or CEDR. [although, for the reasons previously stated however, think carefully before MCOL].
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
@JDB many many thanks. Very helpful advice. I owe you (and others) a drink!
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