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Having just returned from a trip to Jamaica, the risk of downgrade when booking through Avios is clear.
We had two return flights in Club World booked on 23rd October 2023. Our seats were selected 7 days in advance so I was surprised when I was not able to check-in only 24 hours ahead of the flight. The error suggested our passports and visa’s needed to be checked, very odd request as UK citizen traveling on a UK passport back to the UK!!
To avoid any issues we arrived at the airport prior to the check-in desks opening, we ended up being second in the queue. Once they took our passports and said we will be back with you in a moment I knew there was something up.
According to the check-in staff the plane was changed that morning and there were a reduced number of business class seats. I’m certain the downgrade was determined before we got to the airport, because we booked using Avios. I talked to plenty of other Club world passengers in the queue who could not believe what was happening to us, some had checked-in online that day, so there was nothing wrong with the online process. To make matters worse we had to stand at the check in desk for an hour whilst they resolved the issue, watching everyone else get their Club World tickets, including those who were allocated our selected seats!! Very frustrating.
Our only choices were to except WTP tickets or wait two days to return on the next BA flight in CW (assuming that one was not oversold/plane changed etc). The second option was not something we could do due to work commitments so we had to except the downgrade. Check in staff at the airport were 3rd party and not BA so whilst I spent some time registering my disappointment they could not help any further.
The executive club will only refund the Avios for the difference between CW and WTP (32,500) and only for the Avios used not the companion voucher. So I have had to log a complaint with customer relations, to get the additional miles I believe I’m due, which I think is 75% of the usual CW fare from Kingston to LGW, including the actual miles attributed to the companion voucher. I have also asked for additional compensation as the whole situation was badly managed by BA. I expect it will be multiple weeks before I get a response and no idea what I will get but I will fight this one as its not acceptable.
So if you are on an Avios booking and CW is looking full, either because they have oversold or the plane has changed, watch out you will be first on the list to be downgraded. I will update this thread if I manage to make some progress with the complaint, any advice from other HFP users would be welcome.
Safe Travels
The only advice I’m going to give you us to cut out all the emotional crap from your communications with BA (and indeed any further posts on this topic.)
If you present the facts simply and get directly to the point you’re more likely to receive a positive response.
I’d advise you to search the forum for numerous other examples of this and advice offered by regular knowledgeable posters. But an excellent starting point is this article:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2021/02/15/compensation-for-british-airways-downgrade/
“the risk of downgrade when booking through Avios is clear”
Do you have any actual proof of this or just hearsay? Maybe you had the lowest passenger score so would have been first to be downgraded even if you had paid cash.
(Sorry about the downgrade, that sucks, make sure you get everything out of them that you can)
Infuriating though it must have been, as noted above there’s no point in ranting to BA as it will slow down the underlying claim and they won’t pay you any extra compensation. The downgrade reimbursement is supposed to cover the inconvenience, discomfort etc. I also don’t think there is any pattern of Avios passengers being selected for downgrade.
That said, you can either let matters take their course and it’s relatively likely BA won’t pay the full sum they owe without making you go to CEDR or MCOL. If you want to light a fire under them to get things moving, you can write a letter before claim to the legal team after seven days – the required time frame under Article 10(2) for BA to reimburse you. In that letter, say that although BA was aware on the day of travel that the downgrade had taken place, you were not advised of your UK261 rights, the airline took no steps to initiate the reimbursement which it was in a position to do, but elected to avoid its responsibilities under Article 10 and in fact tried to bamboozle you by offering 1 x 32,500 being the difference between CW and WT for one passenger and no refund of YQ when BA is or should be fully aware that the correct ‘payment’ due to you is in fact 75,000 Avios x 2 plus 75% of the cash element for that leg (calculate the sum). Say that if that sum is not paid within 14 days you will issue proceedings seeking recovery of the 150k Avios at 1.76p/Avios plus £x [set out the total sum to wake them up] and interest at the 8% county court rate (starting from seven days after the incident) plus the court fees which will be £115 if the claim is under £3,000 (before fees or interest).
I would add that if they fail to pay, you will also report the matter to the Chairmen of the CAA and CMA as the conduct of the case, deliberately seeking not to pay the correct sum owed and failing to meet the seven days specified by legislation is a matter of wider concern for all passengers and is a pattern of behaviour reported here and not one off.
FWIW the aircraft wasn’t changed, Jamaica always flies on the 32 CW config bird. They don’t all have a crew rest so one seat may have been needed for the pilot but that should have been factored in to the bookings as that is normal.
FWIW the aircraft wasn’t changed, Jamaica always flies on the 32 CW config bird. They don’t all have a crew rest so one seat may have been needed for the pilot but that should have been factored in to the bookings as that is normal.
That’s a very helpful additional point for the pax to make in their letter to BA.
Infuriating though it must have been, as noted above there’s no point in ranting to BA as it will slow down the underlying claim and they won’t pay you any extra compensation. The downgrade reimbursement is supposed to cover the inconvenience, discomfort etc. I also don’t think there is any pattern of Avios passengers being selected for downgrade.
That said, you can either let matters take their course and it’s relatively likely BA won’t pay the full sum they owe without making you go to CEDR or MCOL. If you want to light a fire under them to get things moving, you can write a letter before claim to the legal team after seven days – the required time frame under Article 10(2) for BA to reimburse you. In that letter, say that although BA was aware on the day of travel that the downgrade had taken place, you were not advised of your UK261 rights, the airline took no steps to initiate the reimbursement which it was in a position to do, but elected to avoid its responsibilities under Article 10 and in fact tried to bamboozle you by offering 1 x 32,500 being the difference between CW and WT for one passenger and no refund of YQ when BA is or should be fully aware that the correct ‘payment’ due to you is in fact 75,000 Avios x 2 plus 75% of the cash element for that leg (calculate the sum). Say that if that sum is not paid within 14 days you will issue proceedings seeking recovery of the 150k Avios at 1.76p/Avios plus £x [set out the total sum to wake them up] and interest at the 8% county court rate (starting from seven days after the incident) plus the court fees which will be £115 if the claim is under £3,000 (before fees or interest).
I would add that if they fail to pay, you will also report the matter to the Chairmen of the CAA and CMA as the conduct of the case, deliberately seeking not to pay the correct sum owed and failing to meet the seven days specified by legislation is a matter of wider concern for all passengers and is a pattern of behaviour reported here and not one off.
Thanks JDB appreciate the advice. understood on the additional compensation I will work on getting the Avios back and keeping comms to BA clear.
“the risk of downgrade when booking through Avios is clear”
Do you have any actual proof of this or just hearsay? Maybe you had the lowest passenger score so would have been first to be downgraded even if you had paid cash.
(Sorry about the downgrade, that sucks, make sure you get everything out of them that you can)
Thanks Chris, I could not get any official confirmation from BA as to why we were selected, the staff at the airport did not know or would not share. However I would expect BA to select the Avios flyers first, since it means they don’t have to pay a cash refund out. Its not happened to me before on Avios bookings but I just wanted to warn everyone else, its something to be aware of on the busier routes or smaller CW cabins. I don’t think it was based on my passenger score as I’m a reasonably regular flyer with BA (12+ flights this year) but I guess I will never know.
@petemansell – there’s clearly quite a bit more to the magic algorithm than just Avios passengers and status is probably more important and possibly BAH customers. It’s quite unusual for BA to pay out correctly in these instances without escalation and in your case the cash payout at £2,500+ would probably be higher than if they had downgraded the lowest fare paying pax. BA seemingly has some new tricks relating to downgrade reimbursement to cut the payouts, but they won’t affect you.
Having just returned from a trip to Jamaica, the risk of downgrade when booking through Avios is clear.
What status are you with BAEC as that might have had a bearing on who to downgrade? Sound advice from @JDB as normal
However I would expect BA to select the Avios flyers first,
This is pure confirmation bias then. You expected it, so you blamed it – there is no proof either way.
The number of flights you have taken is irrelevant to the decision to downgrade you – that is based on the passenger score you Vs everybody else has, plus extra things like not splitting up parties.
And to repeat what I said earlier – it still sucks this happened to you and I hope you get whatever JDB thinks you should get 😄
a bit more to the magic algorithm than just Avios passengers and status is probably more important and possibly BAH customer
I’ve not heard that about BAH customers before, but it is logical and makes sense. Maybe partner codeshares get a higher score too.
I read this early just before I checked in for my flight from Rio to LHR ON 2 FOR 1 avios booking.
All went well. Arrived at airport to find they’d moved us from 2A B to 7J K.
Not ideal.In the lounge I spoke to a lady whose company had paid for her business flights. She told me that 4 people, including her, had been bumped down to WTP and 4 bumped down from WTP to economy because business was overbooked.
Apparent they moved people who weren’t Gold and Silver members.
So avios being downgraded isn’t a thing.Update…
Managed to get this resolved… got an e-voucher issued from BA. This offer combined with the comp on the day of departure and the small amount of miles refunded takes it very close to the £ value of miles based on the downgrade. So I’m closing this BA compliant off as successful!
Thanks to all those who provided advice, for anyone else with this challenge, this is the process I went through:1. Log a compliant with customer relations – you can only communicate with them via a web form and a postal address!
2. Chase multiple times through the executive club – who can’t provide an update on the case but can escalate it.
3. Write a letter before action to both the customer relations team and the legal department. You can find templates online. Thanks to JBD for the advice.It can be done but needs constant pushing.
hope this is helpful and good luck.
Hi Pete, I know this is a year out, but your post and BA situation is identical to mine.
Ba closed my claim after 6 month. Only an apology!
I had written as well but no reply
Can you advise on to whom you wrote to on legal team?
Where can i find templates?
any help appreciated
thank youSearch HfP for ‘CEDR’ and you’ll find a step by step guide to the arbitration process.
CEDR cannot issue Avios, only cash, so your claim is for the Avios you are due (compo is 75% of price paid) x 1.7p which is what BA sells Avios for.
Thank you
Thank you for that , one question?
My complaint to BA was unanswered for 8 months. They then emailed me an apology and hoped i would fly soon! they then closed the complaint! So i have no rejection letter as they have not bothered to look into this, Should I still go through CEDR as BA have clearly not looked into my claim. they have not disputed it, all they say is sorry! I can go thru CEBR now which is what i’m thinking to do. It is impossible to get any communication with BA as they have closed my clase.Thank you for that , one question?
My complaint to BA was unanswered for 8 months. They then emailed me an apology and hoped i would fly soon! they then closed the complaint! So i have no rejection letter as they have not bothered to look into this, Should I still go through CEDR as BA have clearly not looked into my claim. they have not disputed it, all they say is sorry! I can go thru CEBR now which is what i’m thinking to do. It is impossible to get any communication with BA as they have closed my clase.In the first instance, I would try to resolve this with BA by reopening the case. The reason for this is that CEDR is slow and because downgrade compensation is a bit messy, BA is very adept at muddying the waters so that you don’t get the right sum even after going to CEDR. You don’t mention your route, but note the 75% above is only for long haul (over 3,500km) or 30/50% for shorter flights.
In either scenario, reverting to BA or escalating to CEDR, you want to make sure you set out the facts succinctly and most importantly all the calculations (with supporting documents) to justify the amount you are claiming is set out in full on a per person and total basis and in a way that leaves absolutely no room for confusion.
Thank you for that , one question?
My complaint to BA was unanswered for 8 months. They then emailed me an apology and hoped i would fly soon! they then closed the complaint! So i have no rejection letter as they have not bothered to look into this, Should I still go through CEDR as BA have clearly not looked into my claim. they have not disputed it, all they say is sorry! I can go thru CEBR now which is what i’m thinking to do. It is impossible to get any communication with BA as they have closed my clase.You don’t need a rejection letter if it has been more than 8 weeks since you first raised the claim (and practically, have some evidence of that).
I would suggest opening a CEDR claim, but JDB is correct that you need to set out your case clearly and accurately. That includes claiming downgrade reimbursement, not downgrade compensation.
@Matt – it’s a serious mistake to insist on using the reimbursement word vs compensation and this is one of the words/ways BA uses to confuse CEDR by saying they have reimbursed the passenger (which they may have done) when they have not compensated them. It’s a trick that works rather well.
The EC261 text uses precise wording that references downgrades needing to be reimbursed within seven days but then gives the compensation scale. The only CJEU case on the topic explicitly says it is compensation for all the inconveniences of being downgraded which is why you are (for long haul) compensated by a sum almost always greater than the difference between the classes – i.e. you get the difference plus some compensation.
It is essential to use both words – reimbursement and compensation.
The advice on the BA Flyertalk 261 thread is to claim reimbursement and avoid saying compensation in this circumstance, because BA will refuse compensation. I would trust that advice.
The advice on the BA Flyertalk 261 thread is to claim reimbursement and avoid saying compensation in this circumstance, because BA will refuse compensation. I would trust that advice.
Wow! On what basis do you trust the appalling and incorrect advice from this person? If others have blindly followed the advice, it’s no wonder BA has been winning quite so many downgrade cases and that people are getting reimbursed but not compensated, thus losing quite a lot.
The person concerned clearly hasn’t read the legislation, the Interpretative Guidelines or the leading CJEU case. I would note also that BA’s stance on this has changed which is why I have focussed on the issue.
The best/simplest way of confirming that I am correct comes from the Interpretative Guidelines at 3.4.2
Rights associated with upgrading and downgrading
In the case of upgrading, an air carrier cannot request any supplementary payment. In the case of downgrading, compensation in the form of reimbursement of a percentage of the price of the ticket is provided for under Article 10(2)(a) to (c) of the Regulation. [my bold]Please tell the FlyerTalk poster that their ‘advice’ is positively negligent and probably just mindless repetition of something they have read somewhere. Please draw their attention to and cite the above. Hopefully they will correct the position so that others aren’t misled. Bad advice is worse than no advice.
In any event @Matt why would you exclude the word “compensation”?
Here is an example of the exact phrasing BA is using for its agents and partners to the downgrades (recent suspension of LHR-PKX)
Add OS BA PKX SUSPENSION for all bookings
One ticket change allowed from the above options.
If rebooking into lower cabin, advise customer they can contact our Customer Relations team post-travel for downgrade compensation.
Entry or transit restrictions and scheduled services may change at any time.
Adherence to commercial policies/conditions of carriage guidelines remains entirely the responsibility of the user. BA reserves the right to withdraw guidelines at any time
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