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@bd85uk, when were the tickets for your flights 29/4/22, return direct 2/5/22, issued? Was it more than a year from the new dates you want. Mine have been cancelled twice, the last tickets for 2/12/21-13/2/22 were issued 26/2/21 and cancelled 18/8/21. The agent I spoke to said that the one year validity was from 26/2/21, the date of the last issue.
Thought I’d add my experience so far trying to get my cancelled flights rebooked, and intended next steps (and welcome any advice)!
I originally booked British Airways reward fights using the 241 Amex voucher booked flights from LHR to BKK in July-2020. I subsequently cancelled to a voucher and rebooked during the Avios 50% sale in Oct-20. Since then I have had my flights cancelled three times:
Original Booking: Nov-20 to Dec-20 (originally booked Jul-20)
Rebooking 1: Apr-21 to May-21 (confirmed Oct-20)
Rebooking 2: Nov-21 to Dec-21 (confirmed 8-Apr-21)In Oct-21 I spoke to a chat agent who put a note on the booking that I wanted to rebook but wasn’t sure what dates. I now know I want to travel on the 14th or 15th April 2022 returning 2nd May. Should not that BA isn’t flying to Bangkok until October so they would need to refute me onto a different airline.
So far I’ve spoken to three different agents and been told different things on each call:
01 Call (27-Feb): The agent offered the following 2 options: (i) full refund, (ii) rebook me but my return flight would have to be in April (system wouldn’t let him book outside April)
02 Chat (27-Feb): The agent told me that the ‘booking validity’ was until the 8-Ap-22, and my requested dates were ‘outside the booking validity’. She offered the following options: (i) a voucher, (ii) a full refund, (iii) rebooking provided the outbound was flown by the 8th April.
03 Call: (28-Feb): After speaking to an agent had a call back from a manager. He told me that my ticket validity ended in Jul-21. He offered: a) a voucher, b) a full refund. He was clear that BA would not re-book me onto new flights free of charge and if I wanted to be re-booked the flights would be re-priced and subject to Avios availability.I’ve sent an email to customer relations as well and waiting to hear back.
Interestingly all the agents have told me different things regarding the rebooking options. Consistently none of them have been able to/willing to rebook me onto new flights on my requested dates which I believe is my legal right under EU261/2004 article 8.1.c.
Whilst I appreciate that 2 of the agents have got ‘close’ too my dates, flying back in April would still require me to loose 2 days from a 2 week holiday (assuming I could even get another agent to do this).
My understanding is that ticket validity is irrelevant as BA cancelled the flights, and that I am within my rights to request that BA rebook me on dates convenient to me and therefore should be agreeing to rebook me on my requested dates.
I’m intending to send a letter before action this week giving them 2 weeks to respond. Failing this I then intend to book alternative flights and then MCOL BA for the cost of these. Given I only have 7 weeks until the dates I want to fly there isn’t a huge amount of time!
Would welcome any advice/opinions from those who are more knowledgeable and/or have been through this process on my case etc!
Correct and you will win.
Thanks @Lady London
Well I decided to call a third time to clarify ticket validity and pose the question that throughout my tickets validity they havn’t flown to Australia but my ticket is now expired? However, the agent I got didn’t give me the validity line but said he could only book if awards available which obviously they were not. I told him about my rights under EU261, he went away and a few minutes later came back and proceeded to book me for next December 22/February 23. I now have the flights in MMB but no tickets yet. Wondering if I will be scuppered when the tickets are issued. Also wondering if I should update my complaint to say now resolved to my satisfaction rather than have that team digging into it as well. Any thoughts?
@Tedl I would let sleeping dogs lie. Keep all notes of conversations throughput, dates, times, method by which you spoke to whom etc. Including this last conversation that is now showing the right flights in MMB.
Take screenshots showing what’s in MMB with date and time in the screenshot from time to time now and keep them. But otherwise do nothing.
You are quite likely to not hear back from any complaint you made. If by a miracle you are contacted you can respond saying following a conversation on [date] the flights you needed were provided so problem solved. Say no more.
Your booking will now go into a queue for ticketing by what I believe is an offshore team. Tbese guve prioeity by date of flight for servicing the queue. So it should be ticketed but likely only much nearer the time.
The last thing you want right now is some busybody in BA looking at your booking and saying the agent shouldn’t have done that it’s against internal policies (even if those policies don’t conform to the law). The longer you can leave it untouched taking screenshots the better.
Up to you when you start pushing for it to be reissued or reticketed if it hasn’t been – as if you do get a busybody and the wheels come off you’d be backwards again. I personally would rely on turning up at the airport on the day and seeing how it goes but you might want to kick that stone earlier and take the risk
@LL thanks for your comments, will let sleeping dogs lie as you suggest for the time being and see how things pan out. If nothing heard by mid year will then call to see about tickets.
Checked last night and in the App I have tickets! Didnt see an email but that would have gone to Mrs TedL and since we started this booking, Oct 2020, she has changed email address in BAEC but the booking still seems to send emails to the old address. Cant seem to Print/Email e-ticket receipt, comes up with an Error e-ticket receipt is not available for the method of payment used for this booking. Will take screenshots with ticket numbers, about all I can do at present unless anybody knows another way?
I thought I’d post an update on my case …
– I submitted my case to MCOL on the 28-March. BA requested a 2 week extension, then failed to reply by the deadline (3-May).
– I requested a judgement in default, however, before that was processed BA submitted a written defence to the courts so my claim was passed over to County Court Business Centre on the 4-May.
– The CCBC has just processed the case and sent me BA’s response along with the paperwork to go to a hearing / request mediationI won’t post the entirety of BAs 10 page response – the majority deals with the timeline which we are in agreement on.
Also to note, since I submitted the claim BA has subsequently (which they note in their defence as doing after I submitted my claim, and then argue this fulfils their obligations):
1) refunded me the cash + avoid from the original booking
2) Sent me a cheque for the £455 court fees (not yet cashed)British Airways is defending the case on the basis of ticket validity:
1) They argue that whilst they refused to rebook me on my chosen dates, they did offer to rebook me ‘during ticket validity’ and as such have satisfied their obligation under 8.1.c
2) They then argue that’s following receipt of the court claim they refunded the original cash/avios that they have therefore satisfied their obligations under the regulationQuotes from their response:
– “We will carry you to the destination shown on your ticket in the class of service for which you have paid the fare at a later date at your convenience and within the validity period of your ticket on another of our scheduled services on which a seat is available. If we do this, we will not charge you extra.”– “Any rerouting remains subject to the Conditions that govern the Booking and the ticket validity period as stipulated in the Conditions.”
– “The Booking is not governed by the Regulation in exclusion of the Passengers contracts of carriage; it remains subject to both for any rebooking or rerouting being made.”
Core BA argument:
BA avers that Article 8(1)(c) of the Regulation does not give passengers a right to rebooking at any time of their choosing. If the Regulation was interpreted to mean a passenger has a right to be rebooked at any time, then in theory a passenger could re-book in several years’ time. This would be counter to the purpose of the Regulation which is to reduce the trouble and inconvenience caused to passengers.BA avers that the Regulation cannot be interpreted as providing an indefinite right of rebooking at the convenience of the passenger and Article 8(1)(c) must therefore be read in light of the Conditions.
In this case, the right to rebooking was provided in accordance with the Regulation and the Conditions which provide that the Final Alternative Tickets were valid for use for period of a year from 8 April 2021 (when the rebooking was made) up to 8 April 2022.
The Claimant was therefore offered a generous opportunity of rebooking at their convenience from October 2021 when the BKK route resumed. The Claimant was also offered a refund in accordance with the Regulation.
NEXT STEPS
I now have to fill in a ‘N180’ with details of which County Court I’d like to use etc. There is also the option to be referred to mediation. I’m not sure whether there is any point in going down the mediation route as I don’t intent to ‘negotiate’ (well, I suppose I could consider BAs request to use BOE+2% as the interest rate but otherwise …)
Welcome any thoughts if someone has a perspective on the mediation route?
In terms of countering the ticket validity point, I would have focused on Article 15 (Exclusion of Waiver) to argue against it. Is there any thing else I should consider in my arguments?
Regarding late reply, since it was still being processed the default judgment cannot be made now. However, you can use it to your advantage and argue that BA doesn’t even know how to adhere to deadlines let alone interpret rules. I would ask BA to supply the list of direct to Bangkok they had in that period (I believe very little), so they can’t argue you had plenty of opportunities. And then reiterate and quote the exact wording of 8(3) at passenger’s convenience at a later date. This at the later date is crucial. Cling on to that last bit as often the quotes from BA omit that and indeed interpretations. There is no comma between the two which means it has to be regarded and interpreted as of your own choosing. Mention also that IATA rules to which BA adheres to permit booking outside ticket validity in case of irregularities.
I would also state that BA unilaterally decided to refund you without giving you the options 1,2,3 and that this is not in line with Article 15.
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
Just to add Article 15 again
Article 15
Exclusion of waiver
1. Obligations vis-à-vis passengers pursuant to this Regulation may not be limited or waived, notably by a derogation or restrictive clause in the contract of carriage.
2. If, nevertheless, such a derogation or restrictive clause is applied in respect of a passenger, or if the passenger is not correctly informed of his rights and for that reason has accepted compensation which is inferior to that provided for in this Regulation, the passenger shall still be entitled to take the necessary proceedings before the competent courts or bodies in order to obtain additional compensation.
thanks @meta for the advice!
And you are right; they had no flights to Bangkok as it never resumed!
I’m not sure I’d say it’s a fun process, though certainly a long one. Still I fully intend to see it through
Guess I’ll skip mediation and just go towards the hearing – @MingTheMerciless sounds like I’m going through a very similar process to you!
Hi all.
I’m glad this thread came up again because I couldn’t find it!
Thank you to everyone for your advice, but I ended up cancelling me Cedr claim and ended up flying on my original dates on connecting flights via Philadelphia. I was fully expecting to be downgraded from First class but everything went without a hitch.
The original dates worked for me in the end, but there was also a couple of threads around the same time with Cedr failures which put me off a little bit to be honest. I suppose that’s what BA hope for
Anyway, thanks again for the advice.
Ben
@Thom your case is quite complicated! BA’s submissions seem accurately to reflect the legal position between the CoC and EC261 and for you the winning position lies in this middle zone that a judge will need to determine.
In respect of mediation, it’s your call (and both sides need to accept it before it can proceed) but there is no harm in ticking the box as mediation/a mediator cannot impose any decision on you. If you reach an agreement at mediation, then that will be made binding. It is completely different to arbitration. Agreeing to mediate makes you look reasonable and BA quite likely won’t agree anyway, but if they do it gives you the opportunity to explore/understand their position and you can step out at any time into the court hearing track.
Also, as a lay person, dealing with a mediator is a lot less stressful than dealing with a judge in a short hearing where you need to think quickly on your feet. If you have to do that sort of thing for work, then it will be easy.
Personally, I think the advice being given here re BA flying/not flying to BKK is something of a red herring as if you were keen to travel, you could have been rerouted with another airline and they have been agreeing to that fairly widely and have a published policy. The impression is, and the position you will need to refute, is that you were disinclined to travel to Thailand because it was either closed or complicated. This is the BA perennial open ticket argument. In that respect the burden is on you. The fact that the tickets were originally for Jul 2020 makes your case a little harder.
BA has also unfortunately played a bit cute by unexpectedly refunding you and paid your court fees. The judge may wonder why you’re there at all when you have had a full refund and the court fee has been refunded (cheque cashed or not, they’ve paid). You can say, well it cost me more to buy the replacement tickets, to which they’ll respond the Avios price hasn’t changed and we would have rerouted you within a reasonable time period, but not 20 months later.Specifically, you want to be able to demonstrate strong personal/specific reasons for deferring the original trip until the date you ultimately chose, being aware that the country being effectively closed slightly plays into BA’s hands as that can’t be blamed on them.
I’m not saying I agree with any of this, but the above and probably much more is what BA will argue and what you need to be prepared for. I hope it all goes your way.
@JDB Regarding refund, BA does this in almost every case I’ve seen. The judges have always disregarded this until awarding stage when it was just the matter of deducting monies already paid.
If it comes up, just ask BA to prove when you requested a refund and when they presented you with options 1,2,3 under Article 8 and when you agreed to any of that.Under EC261 the onus is on the operating carrier to prove that they fulfiled their obligations (this has been ruled on through case law).
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
To add from Interpretive Guidelines:
« Where the air carrier does not offer the choice between reimbursement and re-routing and, in the case of connecting flights, reimbursement and a return flight to the airport of departure and re-routing, but decides unilaterally to reimburse the passenger, he or she is entitled to a further reimbursement of the price difference with the new ticket under comparable transport conditions. »
@JDB Regarding refund, BA does this in almost every case I’ve seen. The judges have always disregarded this until awarding stage when it was just the matter of deducting monies already paid.
If it comes up, just ask BA to prove when you requested a refund and when they presented you with options 1,2,3 under Article 8 and when you agreed to any of that.Under EC261 the onus is on the operating carrier to prove that they fulfiled their obligations (this has been ruled on through case law).
Agreed. The element that is unusual re the refund is BA also refunding the Court fees. The overall complication is that there have been so many re-bookings over a long period in this case and the OP then waited from Oct 2021 to the end of Feb 2022 to rebook for April which could give the ‘open’ ticket impression.
Yes – i thought the refund of the court fees was odd … could only think it was a strategy to get me to back down!
@JDB you are probably right to steer clear of it; given the regs don’t say you need a reason only that you can have the option to pick a convenient later date of travel it’s probably a mistake to get into any discussion on why those dates beyond the basics that they are convenient based on when I can get time off to travel ..I’ll make sure i have arguments lined up on every possible aspects, but based on their defence submission really feels like it boils down to whether or not Conditions of carriage – ticket validity – can be applied in terms of 8.1.c; which based on article 15 i believe we generally agree it can’t …!
I guess we’ll find out what as judge thinks in x months time …!
Could you post a link to the IATA rules on ticket validity extensions during irregularity?
Could you post a link to the IATA rules on ticket validity extensions during irregularity?
The IATA published a Passenger Services Conference resolutions Manual, which details the rules, and resolution 735a is the one that details the extension of validity in times of disruption. It basically says that the validity of the ticket can be extended should BA choose, not placing any obligation on them to actually extend it.
There is also another IATA document which does place obligation to extend.
Also BA’s Conditions of Carriage under 9b
« you can choose one of the three remedies set out immediately below.
Remedy 1
We will carry you as soon as we can to the destination shown on your ticket on another of our scheduled services on which a seat is available in the class of service for which you have paid the fare. If we do this, we will not charge you extra and where necessary, will extend the validity period of your ticket. »
What would CEDR say to the likes of Ryanair, Wizz and Jet2 who don’t have “ticket validity” I wonder.
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