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Sometimes I wonder if the outrage (as seen in this thread and the Finnair one) to comments / assumptions which weren’t intended to be offensive is a first world problem.
I suppose if one lived in a country where there were pressing health & safety matters, people might have more important things to focus on rather than making comments along the lines of “did you just assume my gender!” or accuse the Finnair article of sexism (i.e. discrimination).Context please.
Don’t worry about how I’m coping in the world. It’s not me who resorts without provocation to insulting strangers on the internet.
Please have a lovely day. And when I get a moment I’ll send you some useful material to help with the anger issues.
Er – actually you do; you started all this by labelling everyone who doesn’t agree with you a bigot 😂
It’s my understanding that @AmyC is a pilot and therefore her “lived experience” will be that of negotiating her way around a man’s world on a daily basis, much like mine was for many years. People who’ve walked in our shoes do tend to prioritise their battles!
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
@supergers49 as is your right. But it’s interesting that you object more to potential hyperbole than to the use of gender stereotypes.
I object to the risk people’s reputations can be tarnished irreparably due to an unsubstantiated accusation, that might be purely hyperbole. Just to be clear if there is evidence of consistent sexism in the articles, I’ll be the first one arguing changes are required because it is an issue that should be taken extremely seriously.
But to play Devil’s Advocate, @Supergers49, why would you? This is a niche website with very limited influence outside the points sphere, not the national media. Do you scour the press daily for pieces to object to? IMO having a go at Rob (who I don’t always agree with), is akin to going into someone’s house and complaining about what they watch on TV.
I totally agree about the reputational issue though. It’s like the recent furore about JK Rowling. I don’t actually agree with her views on gender (as a retired cop who dealt with a number of trans women, I can tell you categorically that they are far, far more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators), but she is entitled by law to Freedom of Expression and not to be subject to intimidation and threats of violence. Yet some of the individuals (who no doubt consider themselves to be “woke”) who have systematically trashed her reputation seem to think it’s perfectly acceptable to send her death threats and post where she lives on line.
I’ve even felt aggrieved because I have an Android phone rather than an i-Thing and been told as I am in such a minority (in other words not having more money than sense) things on HfP will be done fixed and tested on i-Things first. So clearly I was not important.
My feelings were hurt by this but then I (wo)manned up and thought Yeah that’s a bit of a dig but actually it has a sound logical basis. I got over it and haven’t gone around screaming about the site’s money-ist elitist attitudes. Even the London-centric thing only reflects flying availability reality for our type of flyer. And we’re slowly overcoming that with the number of great topics on things for real people to do with and without families outside of London.
FWIW very few women I know will ever leave their feet on the floor when sitting on a couch. Men I’ve observed are either flat out or they have their feet on the floor. Perhaps I don’t have the widest experience of men or couches.
However, I do feel he is influenced by what he feels this sites target audience is meant to be.
I think this is the crux of it, whilst we clearly appreciate the content, that’s why we’re here after all, there is very often tone deafness from Rob. I’ll admit, I’m still not over his insistence that the site is mainly frequented by investment banking millionaires! (I am of course paraphrasing)
I don’t view HFP as some sort of personal blog as many here do, it’s a journalistic website, so if the tone is off then it’s perfectly valid to call it out. This thread and the many comments on the article started as constructive criticism and should be viewed as such, IMHO.
I’m tickled how this thread is in HOUSEKEEPING
Rob is not tone deaf, I think sometimes he has a little fun by being a bit provocative
Plus sometimes there’s a bit English humour in the comments too.
Ironically, #womensday today (and please no follow ups of “What about International Men’s Day?” as that’s November 19).
@northernlass I absolutely did not call everyone who disagrees with me a bigot. I did use the term bigot but certainly not aimed, either explicitly or implicitly, at everyone who disagrees with me.
So you seem to be objecting to reputations being damaged while simultaneously making false statements about me.
And it’s great that you pick your battles so carefully. I suppose given how selective you are I should feel honoured that you’ve taken the time and energy to argue this point. It must be very important to you.
I made a perfectly civil opening comment on this thread. If you want the same sort of quantity of generalisations in articles and outright misogyny in comments then by all means disagree.
I expressed an opinion, there are some others who agree, as demonstrated by several of the comments on the article and some in this thread. Some people disagree and some of those people have been rude, inaccurate and dismissive in their responses, not to mention the drawing of ridiculously false equivalence. This is absolutely nothing like the death threats that JK Rowling (or anyone else has received). Someone suggested that I had indulged in hyperbole but here you are likening it to a situation in which a woman has received serious threats.
Rob has taken feedback on board and made a change to the article. But by all means keep arguing this point, and keep the thread high up in the recent forum posts list.
But to play Devil’s Advocate, @Supergers49, why would you?
Sexism has a pervasive nature to it. I’ve seen it destroy perfectly good online communities because it spreads. I would argue for it to stop, to avoid a community I enjoy changing for the worse.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not aware of this being an issue here but I am probably not the best judge either. There can sometimes be a superiority taken by people in the comments section but I don’t believe that is intentionally directed towards any specific gender, its just people believe they are smarter than others and feel trying to demonstrate that makes them look better.
I found the comment this morning, re the Finnair seat, slightly “odd” but not sexist… that said I am probably not the best judge of whether it should or should not be perceived as such.
@Rach, to be fair you absolutely said two things that certainly appeared to have been aimed either explicitly at everyone who disagrees with you. These were, “It’s only bigots who think woke is a bad thing,” and “I’d say it’s not just your skin that’s thick if you fail to see the sexism in that piece.”
It is possible that you expressed yourself badly, but you cannot deny that you said these things. Unless we inhabit a Trump-esque world where words are devoid of any factual content, I have to conclude that you regard anyone who disagrees with you as being both thick and a bigot.
@jj the OED describes woke as: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice
What term would you use to describe someone who is themselves not only NOT alert to racial or social injustice or social discrimination but also thinks it’s a bad thing to be alert to it and uses the term as a slur? By all means help me out with a better way to describe that.
To use woke as an insult or to think it’s a negative thing to be when you consider the meaning of the term is odd in my view.
As for the other part, that was aimed at one commenter who dismissed my view as “poppycock” and not anyone else. I’m sorry if you thought it was aimed at you.
We can all agree to differ on this. I really don’t mind.
@jj the OED describes woke as: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice
What term would you use to describe someone who is themselves not only NOT alert to racial or social injustice or social discrimination but also thinks it’s a bad thing to be alert to it and uses the term as a slur? By all means help me out with a better way to describe that.
To use woke as an insult or to think it’s a negative thing to be when you consider the meaning of the term is odd in my view.
As for the other part, that was aimed at one commenter who dismissed my view as “poppycock” and not anyone else. I’m sorry if you thought it was aimed at you.
We can all agree to differ on this. I really don’t mind.
I hate the term ‘woke’. I often associate it with people who are looking for opportunities to express faux outrage.
These people (in my opinion) do a lot of damage to the worthy causes that they are supposedly supporting.
Sexism and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing, but when people start hypothetically jumping up and down and crying sexism because someone unintentionally chose unfortunate wording to describe something, then you are undermining and weakening that cause.
Yes Rob’s original choice of words were unfortunate, and no this isn’t the first time he has said unfortunate things, but I do not believe he is deliberately trying to be offensive or sexist or whatever.Please go and find a genuine case of deliberate offence and/or discrimination elsewhere to campaign against.
It was certainly very encouraging that the vast majority of commentators on the Finnair seat article were appalled by the author’s comments. It’s great to see so many people standing up to gender stereotyping when they see it.
Don’t worry about how I’m coping in the world. It’s not me who resorts without provocation to insulting strangers on the internet.
Please have a lovely day. And when I get a moment I’ll send you some useful material to help with the anger issues.
Er – actually you do; you started all this by labelling everyone who doesn’t agree with you a bigot 😂
It’s my understanding that @AmyC is a pilot and therefore her “lived experience” will be that of negotiating her way around a man’s world on a daily basis, much like mine was for many years. People who’ve walked in our shoes do tend to prioritise their battles!
It doesn’t really matter but I thought it remiss if I didn’t correct the pilot thing. I’m only a pilot in my spare time not for a living (unfortunately). But yes, I do work in an even more male dominated industry than aviation and have experienced sexism in all its guises. I still completely fail to see any sexism in the original article & what mainly got my back up was it seemed someone was speaking for all of us when they said, ‘Less sexism in articles please’ like it was a given. Anyway, it’s debated to death now. Tomorrow is another day.
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Rach sounds absolutely great.
Rach sounds absolutely great.
She totally does but Amy said she’d be my friend first and I don’t want to be disloyal.
It’s a gift being able to take so much offence when it isn’t intended.
Despite being a wealthy, white, male I’ve had more than my fair share of discrimination. The Finnair seating images just adds to that list but like the other things I’ll do my best to shrug it off.
@roberta thanks for the props. Means a lot.
Someone protesting about sexism whilst simultaneously indulging in the hate crime of mis-gendering.
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