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I’m in dispute with Sixt rent a car. (Well, I’m disputing, they’re not engaging with me at all, other than Level 1 call centre.)
It relates to a car that broke down during rental, and they appear to have taken six weeks to arrange recovery. (German car, broke down in Slovenia.) They’re now trying to charge me £1800 for the extra rental days.
My credit card company (MBNA) has blocked the charge, and suggests that if I can’t get Sixt to withdraw the charge, they’ll help me dispute it.
What would be the consequences if I win a dispute? Is that the end of the matter, or is it just the end of them trying to take payment from my Visa card? Could they then pursue me through debt collection/ courts if they still disagree?
Original thread about the breakdown: https://www.headforpoints.com/forums/topic/breakdown-during-rental-whats-reasonable/
@Rich_A – unfortunately winning a chargeback/s75 doesn’t extinguish any claim a merchant might have against you. As a practical matter, most merchants will accept the decision as ending the dispute, although not Ryanair of course.
You want to start with a chargeback (on the ground of erroneous charge for service not delivered) first and then move to s75 only if necessary. In order to make it easy for the person reviewing your claim and to make clear to Sixt that you mean business, put together a single PDF setting out a chronology and concise bullet point summary of the issues with references to any supporting documentation you have.
The key issue is that your rental terminated early owing to a defective vehicle that could not be repaired prior to the end of the contract and the keys were returned to Sixt’s local agent by agreement with that agent on xx date. The erroneous charge relates to days after the return of the keys when the car was in the possession of Sixt/its agent and thus cannot be charged to what is by now the previous renter/customer. Maybe copy your MBNA submissions to international-de@sixt.com
Thanks, that’s very helpful. I’ll discuss the chargeback with MBNA on Monday.
I have good notes of what happened when.
Unfortunately, ‘handed back the keys’ is a bit of a difficult area. With agreement from the breakdown company, I left the keys with the hotel front desk and continued on my way. That is what seems to have caused the problem, and the only proof I have is my own notes.
@Rich_A – I wouldn’t worry about the keys issue. Once you made an agreement with Sixt or its agent (their approved breakdown firm) to hand over the keys to a mutually agreed third party, your hire ceased. The car was at that point available to Sixt and whether or not they collected the keys is immaterial. You had left the country. Your record of the agreement with the local agent is sufficient – and presumably they will support your story as will the hotel which held the keys that were eventually retrieved.
I’ve begun the chargeback process with MBNA. The guy I spoke to in their disputes team seemed to think it would have a very good chance of succeeding – interestingly the main reason seems to be that Sixt didn’t send me an invoice before trying to take payment (Visa rules, apparently). That might be what derails them!
I’ve begun the chargeback process with MBNA. The guy I spoke to in their disputes team seemed to think it would have a very good chance of succeeding – interestingly the main reason seems to be that Sixt didn’t send me an invoice before trying to take payment (Visa rules, apparently). That might be what derails them!
I hope you are successful; Sixt would be mad to challenge the chargeback which will force them to reassess their position. The good thing with chargeback is that the card provider is on your side as the merchant has to pay. The approach changes if you need to move to s75 as the cost is suddenly on MBNA.
Thanks for the advice. I won my chargeback.
Fingers crossed Sixt doesn’t still claim I owe them money, and try to recover it via another route. They are still not engaging with me on the matter, but I think that’s institutional incompetence, rather than malice.
@Rich_A – well done, that’s good news. It’s much better to succeed on a chargeback because essentially the matter has been settled between MBNA and Sixt so the case ought to be concluded from everyone’s perspective. If the chargeback had been unsuccessful and you had needed to move to s75, the case with Sixt wouldn’t have been closed, even if MBNA paid you.
I got banned from uber until I paid up a successful s75 claim with them. Monopoly in so many markets so I paid. Didn’t feel great.
I got banned from uber until I paid up a successful s75 claim with them. Monopoly in so many markets so I paid. Didn’t feel great.
Yes but surely the purpose of a s75 claim is to put you in the position you were before the dispute, not to be at an advantage, hence it’s recompense for a payment you’ve made and disputed
I got banned from uber until I paid up a successful s75 claim with them. Monopoly in so many markets so I paid. Didn’t feel great.
I’d be interested in some further info on this incident, if you have time to type it out in more detail
I got banned from uber until I paid up a successful s75 claim with them. Monopoly in so many markets so I paid. Didn’t feel great.
Yes but surely the purpose of a s75 claim is to put you in the position you were before the dispute, not to be at an advantage, hence it’s recompense for a payment you’ve made and disputed
@HampshireHog – the point is that if you win a chargeback or an s75 claim, the matter is settled as between you and the card provider, but the dispute with the merchant may still remain open. The merchant may still pursue you for the money as Ryanair famously did during covid.As cited above by @dshunter Amex settled via chargeback/s75 but Uber wasn’t happy so blocked him until they got repaid, so ultimately he didn’t win and certainly wasn’t advantaged.
Yes but presumably as I said @dshunter isn’t now out of pocket? I’ve had several s75 and chargebacks. Chargeback and the merchant is out of pocket, s75 and the card provider is out of pocket.
My understanding of the legalities of this is somewhat sketchy. However, if you win a chargeback, it is my understanding that the merchant does not have the money. If you win a section 75 however, the money is reimbursed by the card company. The merchant therefore keeps the money. If you win section 75, then there is no claim on you from The merchant. Is that not the case?
I won a chargeback with an insurance company and they threatened to take me to court. However this was Amex’s fault.
The policy was to be paid in (interest-free) instalments and I cancelled it part way through the period of insurance. As per the contract and as agreed at the time of cancellation, the insurer should have partially refunded one instalment and ceased taking future payments. After 3 months of continual nudging, they still had not done this and continued to take payments.
I therefore provided all the information to Amex and asked them to reverse the incorrect transactions. For some reason Amex decided to reverse every transaction to the merchant, including the correctly-paid premiums for the period where the policy was active.
I spoke to several Amex agents including in Brighton over several weeks, and they all seemed to understand the situation, yet in the end Amex sent me a letter saying all the chargebacks were successful. This spurred the insurer into action.
It seems they provided the same info to Amex as I did, and we did not understand how Amex came to the wrong decision about (some of) the chargebacks. They told I should pay them back the premiums (which I agreed were due) as well as reimburse them for the chargeback fees levied by Amex. If I did not reimburse them they would send a letter of action followed by MCOL.
I decided to pay up (by cheque) and complained to Amex. Somehow Amex decided that they would compensate me for the exact amount I was made to pay, i.e. including the chargeback fees. So the insurance ended up being free. I also got to keep all the Avios.
For half a year afterwards, Amex continued to send me letters every 2 months saying they needed further information to progress my Section 75 claim. I made another complaint and the letters stopped although they didn’t give me any more money.
Yes but presumably as I said @dshunter isn’t now out of pocket? I’ve had several s75 and chargebacks. Chargeback and the merchant is out of pocket, s75 and the card provider is out of pocket.
Yes, he was out of pocket as he expressed! He had to repay Uber the money he ‘won’ via Amex in order to get his Uber account unblocked. That was the whole point of his post at 14.52, although I think he may have said s75 when he meant chargeback, but the context made this clear.
Yes but presumably as I said @dshunter isn’t now out of pocket? I’ve had several s75 and chargebacks. Chargeback and the merchant is out of pocket, s75 and the card provider is out of pocket.
Yes, he was out of pocket as he expressed! He had to repay Uber the money he ‘won’ via Amex in order to get his Uber account unblocked. That was the whole point of his post at 14.52, although I think he may have said s75 when he meant chargeback, but the context made this clear.
Well that makes no sense does it?
I probably should have suggested this previously when reading this (or Rich_A’s earlier thread) but another avenue you could have used here was ECRCS (European Car Rental Conciliation Service): We help customers with unresolved complaints concerning cross border rentals in Europe
It’s ADR for cross border rentals.
Having used this twice in the past 24 months, both times successfully, I will start a new topic about this one day soon.
Sorry, didn’t realise my post would spark so much debate.
Yes, possible that I have mixed up chargeback and S75.
Basically, ordered a relatively large (£100+) Uber Eats meal. Food didn’t show up, I went into the app and could see that Uber drivers were continually turning up at the restaurant, and then deassigning themselves so a new driver had to be found, repeatedly. Presumably some issue at the restaurant. Anyway, after a while, I got a message saying that an ‘Error had occurred’ – the order would be cancelled and I would not be charged for my meal. I screenshotted this due to a previous poor experience with Uber refunds that was eventually resolved.
Anyway, there was no refund, and Uber robochat incorrectly claimed that as I had cancelled the meal, I was not due a refund. They refused to take the screenshot into consideration and insisted that I had cancelled. To be honest, I don’t think I was even talking to a human.
Anyway, reported to the bank (Lloyds IIRC) and opened a dispute, armed with the screenshot etc. They quickly found in my favour as I had all the required proof and refunded to my account.
However, from then on, my uber apps were all locked until I paid this balance. I tried reporting to Trading Standards but they just don’t have the resources to look into small things like this. Eventually, a cold rainy night with no Bolt/Freenow in sight, and I paid up. 🙁
@dshunter – effing annoying and unfair as well as undermining the point of a chargeback and the protections it is supposed to offer. Fortunately most merchants accept the game is over once they lose or it’s a merchant you don’t plan to use again. Sounds like neither Uber nor Ryanair play nicely.
Sorry, didn’t realise my post would spark so much debate.
Yes, possible that I have mixed up chargeback and S75.
Basically, ordered a relatively large (£100+) Uber Eats meal. Food didn’t show up, I went into the app and could see that Uber drivers were continually turning up at the restaurant, and then deassigning themselves so a new driver had to be found, repeatedly. Presumably some issue at the restaurant. Anyway, after a while, I got a message saying that an ‘Error had occurred’ – the order would be cancelled and I would not be charged for my meal. I screenshotted this due to a previous poor experience with Uber refunds that was eventually resolved.
Anyway, there was no refund, and Uber robochat incorrectly claimed that as I had cancelled the meal, I was not due a refund. They refused to take the screenshot into consideration and insisted that I had cancelled. To be honest, I don’t think I was even talking to a human.
Anyway, reported to the bank (Lloyds IIRC) and opened a dispute, armed with the screenshot etc. They quickly found in my favour as I had all the required proof and refunded to my account.
However, from then on, my uber apps were all locked until I paid this balance. I tried reporting to Trading Standards but they just don’t have the resources to look into small things like this. Eventually, a cold rainy night with no Bolt/Freenow in sight, and I paid up. 🙁
I had a similar issue with Deliveroo. These platforms need better regulation. Ordered food, could see that drivers kept rejecting the pick up at the restaurant. Eventually (after 2 hours), I had to leave home as lunch was well and truly over, the order then gets delivered around 2.5 hours after the initial order (even though the restaurant had the meal ready 10 mins after ordering). I tried and tried to get a refund on live chat, they just kept refusing. Every time the chat was escalated, the escalation team would stop responding until the last escalation team deleted all previous chats.
It seems their strategy seems to be that you have to complain about the food, so that they can clawback the money from the restaurant. They will not honour any refund from their side.They really need regulating, what if I had ordered dinner at 7.30pm and it doesn’t arrive until 1130pm!?!
A quick search online suggests that they also block your account if you chargeback.
As expected, Sixt’s back office have now realised they lost the chargeback and contacted me once again to tell me I owe them the money.
As expected, Sixt’s back office have now realised they lost the chargeback and contacted me once again to tell me I owe them the money.
I’m sorry to hear this – what a nightmare. It’s incredible that they haven’t accepted the situation. You now have two choices – wait for them to recharge your card/pursue you for the money or take them on to get the charge definitively cancelled.
My inclination would be to write to the MD of Sixt in the UK Per Voegerl explaining the situation, that Sixt is attempting to bill you for its own administrative and customer service failures following the breakdown of their car, that an independent arbiter in the form of MBNA/VISA has already agreed the charge was invalid, that this is all very distressing and a complete abuse of process by Sixt and ask him to intervene to get the matter resolved once and for all. I would do this because you really don’t want Sixt putting the matter into the hands of some debt collector.
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