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First thing: please don’t turn this into an ill-tempered political thread. My question is about travel and morality, not politics.
What, if anything, stops you from travelling on conscience grounds? If nothing does, that’s equally interesting, so please tell us.
I ask, as the recent atrocities in Israel have caused me to question whether I could conscionably spend my Avios on a flight with Qatar: the leader of Hamas lives in Doha with the apparent blessing of the Qatari government, and I’ve therefore decided that I couldn’t bring myself to associate with anything owned by that government. I think I could still fly BA, though – a 25% Qatari shareholding in IAG is much more remote.
Are you willing to travel to countries that host terrorists? Or maybe your red line is the treatment of women, LGBT people, religious minorities, political dissidents. Perhaps you refused to go to the USA when Trump.was president, or maybe you refuse to go now while Boden is president. Perhaps you’re concerned about the environmental impact of luxury travel, or the impact on local communities of mass tourism.
In other words, should travel have moral boundaries? If so, where do they lie?
A Boden presidency? Sounds like the yummy mummies are in the ascendancy.
I’ve thought a good deal about this and come to the conclusion that the only people who suffer from these kinds of boycotts are those whose livelihoods depend on the tourist industry – i.e. ordinary working people. The ME gets a lot of attention but there are human rights violations all over the world; you never hear exhortations not to visit Latin American countries, for example, where state brutality and corruption are endemic. It’s illogical to avoid some countries but not others which have the same issues!
For me it’s treatment of animals. Unless I can go there and do some good for them at the same time (ie I support a charity in Luxor, Egypt). I will not go to China for this reason and most of SE Asia. But they don’t interest me anyway so it’s no hardship. I’m sure many will want to jump all over me for this with a lot of ‘What aboutery’ and accusations about not understanding others culture etc. I realise there are deplorable practices in every country on Earth inc this one but I draw the line where it feels extreme and part of the culture. And yes I’m one of those ‘weirdos’ who prefers animals to humans.
It’s an interesting question. Of course, the only right answer is each person’s own, for themselves (and not to be imposed on others ;-).
For me personally, I don’t think there’s anywhere I would specifically avoid for moral reasons. There are a few that I have no particular desire to visit, but that’s not to say I never would.
I think it’s important not to regard a country’s government as being the same as its people. I tend to agree with @NorthernLass’s point about it being ordinary people who suffer from boycotts, and sticking with the example of Qatar, most of the people it employs are likely not actually Qatari. I totally understand your (OP’s) discomfort with them being government owned; I suppose I just take the view that a few of us boycotting them isn’t going to make any difference to their government policy – pick your battles etc 😉
Perhaps one moral boundary I might draw (although it’s not a problem I currently face!) is that even if I were wealthy enough to fly private jet, I probably wouldn’t – for environmental reasons. I wish they weren’t seen as such a status symbol, and perhaps there’s an argument for taxing the absolute bejesus out of them to reduce their attraction 😉
I visited North Korea a couple of times around 10-15 years ago. The trips were fascinating and unique, but I have mixed feelings about it since. The Western agencies that I travelled with (who liaise with the state owned agency in North Korea to organise tours) are obviously very pro-tourism and see it as a small way of opening up a very closed and insular country.
A good chunk of hard currency goes directly into the hands of the various tour guides etc, who are probably supporting large family networks in a very poor country. But undoubtedly, the government profits from tourism activities. And it’s one of the most clear cut examples of a terrible, oppressive regime in the world today.
We keep discovering horrible things as we travel.
Didn’t know singapore relied on (and completely relies on) slave labour from poor Asian countries for construction. Though they are not harassed like in ME, they are still treated as third class people with restrictions on movement.
Also didn’t know Argentina is institutionally racist, boasting about being fully white, mocking Brazil for having black people.
More simply, I refuse to fly (or drive) when a reasonable train route is available and I’m travelling solo. I find it much more pleasant anyway, which helps. But it’s definitely conscience first.
If I had a conscience, I wouldn’t fly anywhere for environmental reasons, and making excuses such as “the plane would be flying anyway” doesn’t cut it.
If I was truly against the policies of various governments, then I would never have come to the UK in the first place, or if I had been born here / brought here without making the decision for myself, I would never be able to leave.
I do not visit the USA, initially because I am against the fingerprinting of tourists; however as more countries introduced this then my reason changed to being against being fingerprinted as well as having to pay for it.
Also somewhat topically, I decided that I would not fly to Israel because people of my description have been detained at the airports and had their laptops and phones taken away and (probably) cloned. I would have considered a trip by land from Jordan but I suppose this will be off the cards for a while.
I had intended to avoid going to Sweden because I am against the central bank policies that led to the near-eradication of cash usage in everyday life, but actually on a recent trip I found that cash was accepted in 9 out of 10 places I spent money (even though in the end I didn’t actually use cash at all, because someone in Norway took all my Swedish cash off me at the full interbank rate).
This is a very personal issue, and there’s potentially some crossover (as highlighted by @John) between not going on principle and not going because you fear you might have a bad experience. Racism, gender-based violence, anti-LGBT policies are common the world over, sadly.
If I was truly lead by conscience or morality, I’d find reason enough not to travel to any country in the world.
Interesting discussion, as said above I think you can always find a reason not to go somewhere. I think though that by travelling you discover more about other countries (some of which may not be pleasant) and understand more about their cultures and histories which is no bad thing. As a small example on our recent visit to the US we visited a memorial and a museum about a time after the bombing of Pearl Harbour the US Government rounded up people living in the Western US with Japanese heritage (including many who were US citizens) and detained them for more than 2 years in camps out in the Idaho desert.
If I was truly lead by conscience or morality, I’d find reason enough not to travel to any country in the world.
Or live in any of them. Sadly doing the right thing just doesn’t happen.
I think separating this question from politics is impossible. In the case of Israel in particular, you may want to question how things are reported.
The only countries on my “don’t go” list are some of the ones I have been to. You can only find out things about countries by actually visiting – you may not find out much, but you can notice things that don’t fit in with the image portrayed in the UK/Europe/USA.
My “don’t go back to” list:
Cuba: just so sad to see such a wonderful country and wonderful people and be unable to help. I just can’t live with the endemic corruption necessary to exist, and the blatant lies about the effect of the “embargo”.
South Africa: Kynsna on the garden route is a great place, but we ended up visiting – informally – the shanty town at the top of the hill at the back of it. How those people haven’t seized the fancy homes in Thesen Island that they have to look down on every day? If I lived there, I would have led the revolution! But great credit to them for their fortitude. I now understand the concept of “white priviledge”.
Dubai: the world’s tallest building, yet no mains sewage! As they say in Edinburgh; Fur coat and no knickers! The falseness of the place is something I cannot stand/support.
The next two are not conscience, but anyway, here they are!
Tanzania: been twice, and just fed up with excessive government fees. Yet still hanker to go back!
Anywhere with loud, drunk Americans (and both our kids have now settled down with US citizens, so I know there is another type!)
This is a great question.
I am not a believer that visiting a country means supporting the governments or the “system”. I’d never go to the UAE or Qatar but I’ve been to India several times. I’d love to visit Iran, but now it makes it difficult for the States.
Similarly, traveling to Turkey for the summer does not make me feel I am supporting their Islamist government. I’ve also been to Israel before Bibi’s time, but I cannot associate my ideas with a right-wing government.And it never ends.. If you avoid Qatar, also avoid Qatari investments, that range from Paris St Germain to Sainsbury’s to Harrods.
If you dig deep enough, no country is innocent and will never be.
By the same token, I should leave the UK!
I’d never go to a country that doesnt have a branch of Nobu in it. Any place that cant provide this basic need is abhorrent to me.
I’d never go to a country that doesnt have a branch of Nobu in it. Any place that cant provide this basic need is abhorrent to me.
Glad I’m no longer alone in thinking this thread was inviting insincerity 😆
I’d never go to a country that doesnt have a branch of Nobu in it. Any place that cant provide this basic need is abhorrent to me.
Glad I’m no longer alone in thinking this thread was inviting insincerity 😆
How very dare you !!!??!
It’s an interesting question. I’ve avoided travelling on Qatar Airways because I am not keen on the country or its policies but that hasn’t stopped me flying on BA despite the fact they own 25%. Which is rather hypocritical. Similarly I’ve avoided elsewhere in the middle east though I did have a trip to Israel which was unfortunately cancelled due to the Covid epidemic. I feel that Israel is the one democracy left in that part of the world.
I haven’t consciously avoided travelling to China or Russia though given the current political climate they are not top of my destination list.
I have a different view of South Africa having lived there and I cam see why others avoid it because of the inequality though that isn’t something that would stop me visiting a country. I mean that would preclude visiting many countries such as Brazil – Rio’s favelas aren’t any better than many places that thousands live in in South Africa or elsewhere. I just haven’t visited SA since as I saw most places worth visiting and I’d rather travel elsewhere in the world first.
I’m with @dougzzz and I think it’s difficult to divorce politics from this discussion because many of the examples why someone won’t go somewhere are ultimately the results of politics.
Similarly flying anywhere in itself is potentially a bad idea given the environmental impact. But I do subscribe to the view that in many instances the flight is operating anyway. The reality is that many passenger flights cary cargo in the holds in addition to the self-loading cargo in the passenger cabin. And may people visit the likes of Costa Rica because of its environment and yet ignore the environmental impact of the aircraft that transports them there.
I just go to places I want to visit.
There is inevitably a LOT of grey area. The world is complex, so no government on earth will act at all times you agree with. This suggests that the bar needs to be set pretty low.
One line I do find easy is re: democracy. Any reasonably well functioning democracy (there is no perfect one) I have no issue travelling to no matter how reprehensible I find some policies. Ultimately if you believe in democratic choice then that means supporting it and repspecting the decisions it produces, even when it results in decisions which you don’t support.
For this reason I find it hard to imagine that I would refuse to visit Israel (in happier times) on ethical grounds, even if I disagree with some (note – not all) of their policies.’
Conversely, I agree with the concerns raised in an post above. North Korea is probably the most evil regime on Earth despite some very strong competition, so with their tourism process set up very clearly to bring in hard currency for use by the government (so undoubtedly some will funnel straight into repressive measures), it would fall past my personal line.
Really interesting perspectives all round. I appreciate your thoughts.
NortherLaas’s observation that boycotts can hit the most vulnerable is an important one, I think. But a fine line remains even there – where hospitality workers are poorly paid and disempowered, how much am I really helping them by draining my credit card for the ebenfit of their wealthy employers? That’s one reason why I like to stay and eat in owner-managed places rather than resorts run by absentee corporations. I’m not a fan offree hhandouts, but I like to spend generously with local businesses and craftspeople when I’m in a less affluent country.
I’m reluctant to visit places where a sizeable proportion of the population feels overwhelmed by tourism, and where restrictions on numbers are actively under consideration. Cornwall and Barcelona fall into that category.
Religious persecution is a big issue for me as a Christian. I’m not sure I could visit Pakistan due to he way its Christian minority is treated, for example.
I think tourism can be a huge force for good, by spreading wlprosperity and breaking down cultural barriers. But sometimes I feel I have to turn away, regardless of howich I want to visit.
If I was truly lead by conscience or morality, I’d find reason enough not to travel to any country in the world.
Or live in any of them. Sadly doing the right thing just doesn’t happen.
I think separating this question from politics is impossible. In the case of Israel in particular, you may want to question how things are reported.
Yes very interesting to compare coverage by CNN, BBC and Al Jazeera.
I’m reluctant to visit places where a sizeable proportion of the population feels overwhelmed by tourism, and where restrictions on numbers are actively under consideration. Cornwall and Barcelona fall into that category.
One thing the pandemic gave us was (for a short time) Cornwall all to ourselves. Sadly since then it’s been a tight squeeze and I count the days until half term in October is done and we can get back on the A30 until Easter. A lot of them come here having left all brain cells at home.
All nations have occasional and ongoing issues that some/many will find unconscionable. IMO this should not put us off visiting such countries but where we feel strongly we should take the opportunity to support organisations representing and working with the marginalised and persecuted in the countries in question. This might be as little as a donation to their cause or something more symbolically meaningful such as visits with such groups and oppressed communities. Simply boycotting such nations is not the answer IMO, that only sustains the status quo. When it comes to companies as opposed to countries it can be difficult and a little silly because many are multinational with global reach. You could very easily find yourself unknowing choosing alternative companies that you might find even more unconscionable than that you are purposefully avoiding.
I will not travel on Qatar or Emirates.
I will not set foot in UAE nor take any flight that stops there.
I will not go to Israel.
I do not fly short haul even when train costs significantly more.
I cycle instead of drive where practicable.
I will never have any biological children.
I don’t fly long haul unless I can stay for at least a month – no long flights for short 2 week trips.
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