Which routes have the most and least Avios reward flight availability in Club World and First?

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• Robert says:

  30 Sep30 September 08:29

  Thanks for a really interesting article! I’m waiting for the T-355 date next month to try and find flights in First for my wife and I to the States, but I recognise it’s a gamble.

  If more data was offered, I think it would be interested to see how days in a year 2*First comes available for each route after T-355… i.e. ignoring T-355, what are the chances of availability coming up throughout the year?

  • Rob says:

    30 Sep30 September 08:32

    No F is certain to be available at 355 days normally.

    • Robert says:

      30 Sep30 September 08:59

      Rob: I realise that there’s no guarantee of F @T-355, but I assume there must be available sometimes on some routes? Which is why a “what are the chances of xx date coming available from T-355 to T-1″… although I did see 2* same-day F come available earlier in August 2019 (on RFF), but my wife wasn’t willing to skip work, pack her bags and jump in a taxi at such short notice! Talk about inflexible :-p

  • Anna says:

    30 Sep30 September 08:45

    Availability in F regularly appears to NYC, but not always at T-355. This can be an advantage though, if you’re using a 2 4 1 as it means it’s more likely that you can book both legs at once instead of faffing around on the phone to BA!

    • Anna says:

      30 Sep30 September 08:48

      However, it can also pay to be on the ball – I needed 3 avios seats to MIA for Easter 2020 and usually book at T-355 as we are stuck with school holidays at the moment. At 1.30 am as I sat at the computer 3 F seats materialised which was obviously the jackpot for me!

  • meta says:

    30 Sep30 September 09:15

    +1 I start checking availability about 1-2 months before the date I want. You do notice some patterns, like likelihood of F availability on certain day on some routes. Some F seats are not released at midnight, but at 1pm. It’s good to have subscription to RFF or Expertflyer precisely for that reason.

• Sussex Bantam says:

  30 Sep30 September 08:44

  I think what this article shows is what a terrible loyalty scheme BAEC actually is. Whilst some people will be able to book flexibly most people are limited either by time or destination (or both). For those people they likely need to have made a decision a year in advance and then get up at midnight/1am to make a booking. If you want to redeem a 241 then you even have to be prepared to phone Japan to be able to organise this.

  HfP’s know enough to make this work but for the average person it much be such an exercise in disappointment….and the purpose of a loyalty scheme should not be to leave your loyal customers disappointed and frustrated…

  • marcw says:

    30 Sep30 September 09:22

    You can always is Aviso to receive a discount on your flights. The majority of FFP do not allow that.
    Therefore, you have SO many options with your Avios, way more than any other FFP in the world.

    The question remains whether it’s “good value”. But that’s a different story.

  • Nick_C says:

    30 Sep30 September 09:41

    Surely the loyalty scheme is the Silver and Gold benefits which frequent flyers get.

    I’m not sure Avios is a loyalty scheme. More a way of filling unsold premium seats without selling them at heavily discounted fares.

    • Sussex Bantam says:

      30 Sep30 September 10:02

      That’s an interesting perspective – and it may well be the role BA see for Avios – but it isn’t the way it is marketed. My point is that marketing something in one way which inevitably leads to disappointment for most of your customers isn’t a great idea…

    • marcw says:

      30 Sep30 September 10:17

      It’s the opposite. Bronze/Silver/Gold is the frequent flyer scheme. The more you fly, the more benefits you get.

      Avios is the loyalty program. You get a reward for your loyalty, in the form of points, which you can redeem to get things for “free”.

      • ken says:

        30 Sep30 September 10:45

        Interesting. I bet BA see Gold/Silver as the loyalty scheme.

        You get repeat customers, often booking business, often booking flexible fares (ok these can be with other airlines).

        Many of the benefits of gold are guaranteed and fairly easy to value.

        • marcw says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:29

          You can be loyal to Avios… but never paid for a BA flight.

        • The Savage Squirrel says:

          30 Sep30 September 13:52

          I have hundreds of thousands of Avios but have never set foot on a BA plane. So whatever Avios is … it’s not a BA loyalty scheme :D.

      • Nick_C says:

        30 Sep30 September 16:38

        Most people fly at the back of the plane on cheap tickets. The Avios you get from these flights are worth bugger all.

    • Lady London says:

      1 Oct1 October 00:23

      Noting also that it’s also for getting a lot of your Avios off you as well as more cash than that same seat may be selling for (without the Avios). This particularly for Y transatlantic.

  • Doug M says:

    30 Sep30 September 11:30

    Terrible scheme as judged against what you’d like, or alternate schemes? I find BAEC to be really good for me, and whilst anything can be improved, it’s better than any alternate for me.
    Achievable tiers, good benefits from those tiers, and benefits that extend into OW alliance.

    • Sussex Bantam says:

      30 Sep30 September 12:02

      “Terrible scheme” as in the user experience – although I was specifically talking about the redemption of Avios. I do actually enjoy the benefits from the status.

      I’m a GCH, so in theory one of BA’s more valued customers, but in order to use the Avios I’ve collected to go to the place I want, when I want it is necessary to jump through multiple hoops.

      To book next year’s summer holiday I had to get up at 1am twice including a phone call to Japan. I then ended up having to split my family up across different airports as there were only 2 seats on any flight. My wife will take one of my daughters back from Tampa. I will drive to Miami and take the other home from there. We will end up in Gatwick and Heathrow (hopefully – last year we ended up in Cardiff but that’s a different story)

      We play the game, of course, because the saving is substantial but it doesn’t leave me feeling like a very valued customer when I hang up at 1.30am. Surely a good scheme should leave me feeling happy and positive when I redeem for my rewards – not frustrated and tired ?

      • Doug M says:

        30 Sep30 September 14:50

        Circumstances are your problem, one gold wanting 4 LH flights. To be clear I don’t know the answer, but would the Air France/KLM or Lufthansa scheme at a similar level make 4 seats widely available?
        I regard the gold benefits as great, I really do. Then again, I have yet to redeem for a long haul flight, I go the cash route, booking ex-EU and earning status and Avios I then spend on short haul.
        Long haul redemption availability would be improved by limiting the Amex 241, but then look how negatively Virgin are perceived for their version, often described as rubbish.

        • Sussex Bantam says:

          30 Sep30 September 15:17

          Well – its sort of circumstances but more the design of the scheme. There are ample seats available on the flights I wanted either for cash or for On Business points – just not for Avios. That’s a scheme design decision taken by BA.

          Equally the release of seats at 1am is an active decision taken by BA. Why not mid-day rather than midnight ?

          Now of course these things actually play to our benefit as we understand how the scheme works but for the “ordinary person” they have very little chance of redeeming for a seat to a popular destination. That doesn’t seem like a good scheme design to me.

          …and I must admit that as I woke up tired the follow morning and told my wife she was flying home from Tampa and me from Miami I did start to question whether I shouldn’t just go down your route and pay cash instead.

          (And I don’t know if any other scheme is better – I suspect not)

        • Doug M says:

          30 Sep30 September 21:57

          Have you considered ex-EU? At the moment there is a lot of availability from Paris to many USA destination including Miami for €1200 upwards. Obviously you have the Paris trip either end, but at least you’d be together as a group.

• Paul says:

  30 Sep30 September 09:11

  Slightly OT. I have premium reward flight finder set up for a European flight on Sunday. A flight has come up at 6am which I would rather cancel the trip than take.

  Is it possible to get notifications for if more flights come available on that day?

  • Rob says:

    30 Sep30 September 09:14

    This is an issue with RFF. You won’t get more notifications now unless availability on the 6am goes away and then it reappear on a new flight.

    • meta says:

      30 Sep30 September 09:18

      I believe Expertflyer though has the ability to search for an award seat on a particular flight.

      • Mawalt says:

        30 Sep30 September 10:50

        ExpertFlyer does have that option. I use both EF and RFF because EF does not have the “overview” look, whereas RFF has ONLY the overview look. Also RFF searches more frequently if the search window is further out (ie more than 3 days out)

      • Lady London says:

        30 Sep30 September 23:30

        As does itamatrix, if you can get your head round the syntax

    • EwanG says:

      30 Sep30 September 13:18

      Could another solution be for Paul to book those 6am seats (however many there are) to use up the inventory, then to use the £1 per seat cancellation fee when hopefully availability on later flights appears. It does mean he needs to have the Avios to do this though.

    • MT says:

      30 Sep30 September 16:02

      It would be a useful feature. I’ve been wanting to do the opposite – search for availability on the 2 morning Miami flights so i can connect for the Caribbean. Most days have availability but not on the elusive morning flights.

• Robert says:

  30 Sep30 September 09:15

  Great article thanks, very useful. I used RFF to help with a recent Singapore trip and managed to get F at the last minute.
  For me now, I’m wanting to maximise the value of my next 2-4-1 and take a trip on either the new A350 so I can compare the new CW hard product, or preferably fly F in the 787-9 which has only 8 seats compared to the 14 on 777s and A380s. Does anyone know if they are better, or is it just a smaller floor space and therefore the same product but slightly newer in a smaller cabin?

  • Polly says:

    30 Sep30 September 10:33

    Take F if you can get it..great experience.

  • Stu_N says:

    30 Sep30 September 11:04

    The 787-9 F seat is similar to the others, it’s an evolution rather than new seat. The TV screen is larger but is fixed in place and the controls and storage are a bit different to the rest of the fleet. The 787 is a lovely aircraft to fly on, it’s noticably quieter than 747/777 and the higher cabin pressure and humidity makes a real difference to how I feel after a long flight.

    It’s worth a try if the availability/destination/timings work for you, but I’d choose primarily on where you want to go rather than the aircraft type.

    • Dev says:

      30 Sep30 September 12:00

      In my experience, I felt that the B787-9 has tighter F seats than the B777 or B747, and the A380 has the most space and comfort in F.

  • Robert says:

    30 Sep30 September 13:23

    Thanks for all the advice, I agree the middle 2 seats on the A380 felt the most spacious so far. That’s interesting about the fixed screen, I’m keen to give it a go now on something like the Tokyo route.
    Thanks again.

    • Matt says:

      30 Sep30 September 16:31

      Hi Robert, I’ve travelled in F on the A380 and 787-9, and for me the 787-9 wins. It’s a very stylish cabin and I felt great flying in it. Maybe the A380 is bigger but I didn’t notice it. You can still dine with a buddy on the 787-9 (one of you sits on the ottoman) but it’s obviously tighter than the other planes due to the fixed tv screen. Go for F if the availability is there.

      • Nick_C says:

        30 Sep30 September 16:51

        I flew F in the 789 to Tokyo. Very nice experience. Couple of points worth noting though. The fixed IFE screen means no buddy dining, and the bed won’t go fully flat. The top of the bed is at (for me) a noticeable angle, and I think I sleep better in the CW seat! (I also like facing my partner in CW and chatting over dinner.)

        I went to TYO with my nephew; out in F, back in CW. He had only ever flown in economy. His verdict; it was nice, but he didn’t see much difference between Business and First.

        For me, the best things about F were the First Wing and CCR at LHR (why are people so disparaging about it?), the champagne, and a VIP voucher for fast track immigration on arrival in Narita. A charming lady took us to an unstaffed desk which was promptly opened especially for us, The on board seating and space was marginally better than Business Class on AA’s 77W.

        • Will says:

          30 Sep30 September 17:25

          Nice report, have 4 of us flying out in F on the 787 to NRT this week, looking forward to a cabin of just 8!

        • Robert says:

          2 Oct2 October 09:55

          Thanks for this information, it’s very useful, just hope I can get booked up, BA005 seems to have plenty of availability but BA006 has none, time to call BA and ask nicely if they can free something up!

      • Genghis says:

        1 Oct1 October 05:40

        buddy dining is not an option on the 789

• David says:

  30 Sep30 September 09:23

  Can someone remind me regarding Lloyds upgrade vouchers:
  Voucher expiry date = book by date.
  Question: Can you change dates after booking? Including after voucher expiry?
  What is impact for a off-peak to peak, or peak-to-off-peak change?

  Also, changes to routes in the same zone still permitted after voucher expiry?

  Thanks,

  • Mikeact says:

    30 Sep30 September 09:40

    Yes, we we’ve just book a year out, knowing the I can call and change the date or destination in the same zone only….and assuming there are seats for your new destination.

    • David says:

      30 Sep30 September 09:50

      Thanks, have you booked a peak day or a non-peak day?

      • Mikeact says:

        30 Sep30 September 10:17

        Happen to be non peak, but you can change to peak as well, by paying the difference. In fact we downgrade one to non peak earlier this year, complete with a refunded difference.

        • David says:

          30 Sep30 September 11:03

          Thanks.
          exEU starts are permitted on the Lloyds vouchers aren’t they?

        • Anna says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:38

          Ex EU definitely possible as I have used a voucher to upgrade my son and me to CW on a return leg from BOS.

        • Kian says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:25

          I currently have a Lloyds upgrade voucher booking for CW return. Does anyone know the chance that I could change the return flight from CW to First and pay the change fee and Avios difference between CW and First? I know it’s technically not allowed, but I’m not sure whether the agent could see that my booking involved the upgrade voucher. And should I call BA or avios.com to ask about the change?

        • Mikeact says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:28

          No First with Lloyds voucher.

• Mikeact says:

  30 Sep30 September 09:37

  I feel the situation is probably equally as difficult with RFS around Europe, there is little option but to book well in advance for your preferred destination and hope that all works out , for, say a visit in 6, 9 months time.
  Using Tim’s excellent resource, we thought we would see what’s available for a week or so, leaving today/tomorrow (as the rain was pouring down outside.) Not really surprised, but very little convenient spots with sun, and those I found were a combination of leaving from LCY, LGW, or LHR … usually at the crack of dawn and having to return to one of the other London airports to get back.
  And it of course all takes time and patience, going back and forth between Tim’s and BA, particularly between Economy and CE searches to try and find any suitable combination.
  I’m not complaining, just pointing out that many popular routes just have to be booked in advance to stand any chance…short haul or long haul…as we all know.

  • meta says:

    30 Sep30 September 10:56

    +1 If you see award seat available on some short-haul routes, you must not hesitate to book it straight away. It might be gone within few hours.

  • Lumma says:

    30 Sep30 September 11:23

    I’ve found shorthaul recently seems to be availability in Club Europe only, unless you have the flexibility to wait until the last minute (by which I mean booking in the evening to fly the next morning) when they’ll often release some economy seats.

  • TGLoyalty says:

    30 Sep30 September 19:44

    My experience seems to be the opposite. Managed to get Avios seats to Europe with short notice no problem but I‘ve used the RFF map and agree with others it’s business rather than eco most of the time.

    I’m will to pay £200 return for a club Europe ticket so value usually works out for me.

  • pauldb says:

    1 Oct1 October 05:43

    The AA award map is really good for a specific date check. Maybe too late but today for example there is BDS, CAG or DBV. That’s one way but in a week I would think you can find a flight back for <£100 if nothing else.

• Mr. AC says:

  30 Sep30 September 09:40

  Kinda surprised about the 0 First class availability to Moscow when there’s wide-open Club availability. I checked, and these are some single seats available, so BA does have some F availability on this route. Is it the frequent flyers trying out F enticed by the low taxes?

  • Mawalt says:

    30 Sep30 September 10:55

    I used to travel this route every few months until recently for the last year. Club availability is generally good (Club service in the morning is not worth the upgrade though due to the appalling breakfast menu). There is almost never any availability in First and it’s usually full – whether by reward passengers or not, hard to say. Club is usually half-empty.

    I tended to book WTP and upgrade using Avios to Club where available but only on return flight (DME-LHR).

    • Nick says:

      30 Sep30 September 15:55

      on my flight to moscow in F earlier this year, my wife and I were the only ones in the cabin. A tiny sample size, but we did have a choice of dates.

      • Mawalt says:

        1 Oct1 October 09:52

        What did you think of the F “soft product” on that flight? Worth the extra Avios or “meh”?

        • Nick says:

          4 Oct4 October 06:21

          It’s £55 a ticket, it was an absolute bargain. They went out of their way to wedge in a full F service. The food has been better on other F flights but the Concorde lounge; f seat; f service and champagne for 4-5 hours for a handful of extra points?! It’s a no-brainer, especially as we were on a companion voucher too.

• Aston100 says:

  30 Sep30 September 10:35

  Would BA assist in some way if one is unlucky enough to never find availability to a small list of destinations at specific times of the year?
  For example Cape Town in summer school holidays?

  • Polly says:

    30 Sep30 September 10:48

    Never!

    • Stu_N says:

      30 Sep30 September 11:28

      They do for gold card holders:

      https://headforpoints.com/2019/01/02/what-is-the-british-airways-gold-priority-reward/

      There are also various upgrade vouchers as well.

      • Doug M says:

        30 Sep30 September 11:33

        Before the double Avios route they open additional seats for golds anyway.

        • Stu_N says:

          30 Sep30 September 11:58

          Yes, the V class economy redemptions can be brilliant.

          £250 return to London or £35 + 8,000 Avios, Hmmmm let me think about that….

        • Shoestring says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:10

          how so? opening up extra redemption seats for Golds (ie not the double Avios forcing open route)

        • Stu_N says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:26

          There’s lots of extra redemption seats in economy for Golds – if there are cash seats in fare class “V” a Gold can book a redemption. “V” is one of the cheaper economy buckets but if you’re trying to book about 1-2 weeks out, you’ll generally find something that works out OK.

        • Shoestring says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:35

          I didn’t realise that, I imagined redemption availability would be the same for all statuses incl Blueys like myself! (apart from double Avios/ forcing open seat route) – regardless, can’t see me getting Gold in the foreseeable future

        • Rob says:

          30 Sep30 September 13:06

          Only Economy so you’re not missing much.

        • Doug M says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:30

          CE hardly that different to economy of a SH flight when you’re gold and have the lounge and everything else anyway. Access to exit row seats, theoretical seating keeping seat next to you blocked. CE for a gold offers little.

        • Lady London says:

          30 Sep30 September 23:45

          Gold is definitely, definitely shown more options and better flights. Recent experience of being Gold Silver and Bronze and what is shown on regular search is very very different.

    • Aston100 says:

      30 Sep30 September 12:17

      Never?
      Sounds a bit unfair if one is unable to use the voucher due to constant lack of availability to destinations on dates that one is forced to limit oneself to? no?

      • Shoestring says:

        30 Sep30 September 12:21

        Not at all unfair – that’s user fault

        Quite simply, BA redemption flights *are* available 4+2 on (nearly) every route, every day of the year – if the user can’t get their act together to book the flight/s they want in time before somebody else nabs them, you can’t blame BA

        • Anna says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:43

          Indeed, you need to be flexible. It would be like going into a shop and demanding that they stock items they don’t usually sell. You buy what they’ve got or go somewhere else. I am as restricted as any parent who can only travel in the school holidays but am always spoilt for choice with redemptions, unless you think J/F to Cayman Islands, Miami, NYC, Boston, Washington DC and many European destinations counts as “limited”!

        • Russ says:

          30 Sep30 September 12:54

          Well I do have some sympathy wilh Aston100. If someone can never get the redemption they want then it puts another slant on the 2-4-1 advertising. I do agree that you have to be quick off the mark if you want highly sort awards, but are we now saying that someone also has to have the same knowledge background HFP’rs have to make it work?

        • Stu_N says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:32

          I think of it like going to TK Maxx – there’s always something to buy if you’re not too fussy and you’ll eventually get what you want if you’re patient and persistent.

          We’ve done F to or from New York, Hong Kong, Singapore, Boston, Seattle and Nashville and J from New Orleans in the last three years and scored Cathay F and J from Hong Kong to Tokyo and Singapore, all places we definitely wanted to go to and we got them pretty much when we wanted.

        • meta says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:36

          @ Russ Absolutely! Many of my friends are surprised when I tell them that you need to book 355 days out and that BA releases 4+2 awards on every flight. Some even refuse to believe me.

        • Mikeact says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:38

          Not all the knowledge obviously, but if i were starting out again from scratch, I’d be looking for as much help assistance, and advice as possible . If I couldn’t be bothered then tough.

        • Anna says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:56

          Love the T K Maxx analogy – yes there’s usually a fabulous bargain to be had even if it wasn’t your first choice!

        • Aston100 says:

          30 Sep30 September 14:59

          So my take from this and other comments on this thread is that one shouldn’t count on using the companion voucher for a pre-planned holiday and instead have a shortlist of destinations and dates that fall within budget and within a wider date range.

          However, this does not take away the fact that it is entirely possible to miss out on all short listed destinations and dates if there are just the 2 or 4 seats available per flight and there are other people wanting those too. Especially if the date range is say 2 weeks within a 6 week period. I can imagine trying to book each destination unsuccessfully one after another, every night – especially if by the time you’ve got to the second or third choice, those have been snapped up by others.

          I’m not going to say the companion voucher scheme is not fit for purpose, but to me it’s heading in that direction given the restrictions by BA and limitations on dates and destinations wanted by the traveller.

        • Rob says:

          30 Sep30 September 17:17

          One thing to learn from this article is that China is an excellent place to target. You can either book an onward connection immediately, for cash or with Avios on JAL / Cathay / Malaysia etc, or take advantage of the ‘no Visa stopover’ for a couple of days and then fly on. Seems by far the easiest way to ‘do’ Asia.

        • Darren says:

          30 Sep30 September 15:50

          It’s a better strategy to have the more available destinations in mind prior to booking.

          This article goes some way to pointing you/me in the right direction, even though this is a snapshot with some anomalies. Hong Kong seems light at the moment.

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