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We were recently downgraded from Business to PE at check in on a flight from Cape Town to Heathrow despite having checked in on line and having boarding passes with confirmed seat numbers. We were told this was because the flight was overbooked. BA could not offer an alternative flight as apparently all flights that week were also overbooked. We were contacted within a few days of return and offered total compensation for the two of us of £400 cash or a £600 e voucher and told the refund department would be in touch ‘to refund the difference between the two fares’ I replied saying this was unacceptable and that under UK 261 I expected a 75% refund. This has been ignored. No contact from the refund department at all despite chasing them via customer services. We were travelling using a 2-4-1 voucher and on this occasion had not paid for seats so it’s not rocket science to work out why we were 2 of the 3 downgraded. Despite searching I cannot find any relevant threads apart from the person who sued BA and won, despite finding references to other threads on Avios ticket downgrades. I’d appreciate advice on how best to proceed, direction to any relevant threads or to the correct BA compensation form as the only ones I can find relate to flight delay/ cancellation or refund of paid seating.
You are entitled, per Article 10 of EC261, to reimbursement (not compensation) of 75% of the fare paid with Avios and cash (excluding real taxes/third party charges) for the downgraded sector. That is per person, notwithstanding your use of the 241, whatever BA says. You probably need to reject the £400 compensation unless it’s clearly an ex gratia payment. BA may just present a fait accompli.
At this stage, you should apply for the 75% reimbursement (don’t call it a refund) x two passengers with your calculation and specify that this is in accordance with Article 10 and that the difference between J and PE is both incorrect and insufficient.
They will probably refuse or not pay for both pax, so you then need to go to CEDR or MCOL.
@weeble you should get the 75% reimbursement x 2 even though you used a 241 so the second ticket appears ‘free’. BA always try to avoid paying both pax but it’s been fairly well established at MCOL and CEDR that the companion’s ticket isn’t actually ‘free’ – you have to pay a fee and spend money to get the 241 so the second person gets their own refund. In your case you should also get 75% for most of the cash because in the CPT > LGW direction not much is real third party charges.
@weeble You’re forgetting to include 75% of the YQ fees element that you pay un cash with a 2-4-1 (or any reward) booking that you’re entitled to in downgrade reimbursement.
This downgrading seems to be a common theme for reward bookings.
As for advice to OP I second everything @JDB has written except that instead of rejecting the “compensation” offered by BA I’d claim that in addition to the reimbursement on the basis that the law talks about “downgrade reimbursement” and not compensation.
So I’d be saying thank you for offering £400 per passenger as compensation for our inconvenience suffered for not travelling Club World (as booked and paid for) however as per Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights (Applicable in the UK pursuant to s. 3 European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and amended by The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018) this regulation also covers downgrading, I am now claiming in addition, reimbursement of 75% of the fare paid to travel from CPT to LHR on Flight No xxx for which I had a confirmed reservation (PNR no xxxxx). THis amounts to xxx Avios +£××× (for each passenger). Therefore in total I am claiming xxx.
Nice one, AJA. Thank you for the text it’s precise and will let BA know the 241 passengers they picked on to offload, mean business.
Weeble and CherylD go for it. Don’t worry about BA likely to try their usual stonewalling tactics – your claim is open and shut you will win eventually – though it might take CEDR/MCOL, CEDR should be sufficient and cheaper.
For other cases there are some reported here, winners don’t always report but enough have been reported. HfP is not well indexed internally so an external Google search including site: headforpoints.com should find your search string. Alternatively flyertalk site is well indexed and you’ll find lots of cases there.
Please report back on your success – look at your fare confirmation and you only have to take off official government and very small airport charges then you claim 75% of the remaining figure for that leg. In particular, YQ money also counts as fare money. You could also consider claiming 1.6p per avios back instead for your 75% due, if you don’t have a use for the avios as that’s BA’s publicly published rack rate for selling them.
Discovering you’d been picked due to your loyalty, to be the ones downgraded to the non-flat bed experience on that long flight must have been a great disappointment. So don’t hesitate to get the full 75% back from BA. Good luck.
For those that know and out of interest, if the passengers choose to fly with another carrier (assuming available of course) in a business class cabin, would BA be liable for the cost to be reclaimed?
Weird My post seems to have disappeared despite the fact that LadyLondon obviously read it. (At least I can’t see it here)
Reposting since my original post seems to have disappeared from this thread:
@weeble You’re forgetting to include 75% of the YQ fees element that you pay un cash with a 2-4-1 (or any reward) booking that you’re entitled to in downgrade reimbursement.
This downgrading seems to be a common theme for reward bookings.
As for advice to OP I second everything @JDB has written except that instead of rejecting the “compensation” offered by BA I’d claim that in addition to the reimbursement on the basis that the law talks about “downgrade reimbursement” and not compensation.
So I’d be saying thank you for offering £400 per passenger as compensation for our inconvenience suffered for not travelling Club World (as booked and paid for) however as per Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights (Applicable in the UK pursuant to s. 3 European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and amended by The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018) this regulation also covers downgrading, I am now claiming in addition, reimbursement of 75% of the fare paid to travel from CPT to LHR on Flight No xxx for which I had a confirmed reservation (PNR no xxxxx). THis amounts to xxx Avios +£××× (for each passenger). Therefore in total I am claiming xxx.
For those that know and out of interest, if the passengers choose to fly with another carrier (assuming available of course) in a business class cabin, would BA be liable for the cost to be reclaimed?
There is no provision within the APR for this, although you could try to make out some sort of contractual claim, but given the high cost of last minute business tickets, it’s not one I would risk. What airlines will potentially agree is to rebook people the next day and pay for the hotel by way of compensation.
For those that know and out of interest, if the passengers choose to fly with another carrier (assuming available of course) in a business class cabin, would BA be liable for the cost to be reclaimed?
There is no provision within the APR for this, although you could try to make out some sort of contractual claim, but given the high cost of last minute business tickets, it’s not one I would risk. What airlines will potentially agree is to rebook people the next day and pay for the hotel by way of compensation.
@QwertyKnowsBest I’d agree with @JDB especially since in this case BA was still providing seats on the original flight (just in a lower cabin) – hence the right to downgrade reimbursement. If however you have been denied boarding by BA or an EC airline or other airline departing the UK (or the flight is cancelled) then there is of course the part of the regulation where the airline has to get you to your destination at the earliest opportunity.Therefore if there was another airline with business class seats available to get you back to LHR as close to your original schedule but BA chooses instead to offer you seats the following day on their own plane then you are within your rights to insist BA reroute you on the other carrier. If they don’t agree then you could of course accept the flights the following day and get the airline to pay duty of care (hotel and food and non-alcoholic drinks) and claim delayed flight compensation. That might need you to go MCOL to get the compensation.
I don’t think there would be grounds to claim delay compensation if you’ve refused a seat in a lower cabin – the legislation doesn’t require the airline to provide re-routing under like-for-like conditions, unlike in the case of a cancellation.
I don’t think there would be grounds to claim delay compensation if you’ve refused a seat in a lower cabin – the legislation doesn’t require the airline to provide re-routing under like-for-like conditions, unlike in the case of a cancellation.
Correct, if it’s the passengers choice to travel the next day rather than be downgraded, there would be no entitlement to delay compensation. The offer of a hotel, if any, would be ex gratia for the inconvenience, not a requirement under the APR.
My point about delay compensation is relating to a cancellation or denied boarding and the airline choosing to delay you by 24 hours to fly on their own aircraft, instead of rerouting you earlier on another airline.
If you are downgraded you cannot choose to fly the following day and get compensation on top. But I think BA would pay the hotel bill as the initial downgrade was because there were apparently no seats left in Club – you’d be doing them a favour. That said apparently flying the following day in Club wasn’t even an option.
Reposting since my original post seems to have disappeared from this thread:
@weeble You’re forgetting to include 75% of the YQ fees element that you pay un cash with a 2-4-1 (or any reward) booking that you’re entitled to in downgrade reimbursement.This downgrading seems to be a common theme for reward bookings.
As for advice to OP I second everything @JDB has written except that instead of rejecting the “compensation” offered by BA I’d claim that in addition to the reimbursement on the basis that the law talks about “downgrade reimbursement” and not compensation.
So I’d be saying thank you for offering £400 per passenger as compensation for our inconvenience suffered for not travelling Club World (as booked and paid for) however as per Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights (Applicable in the UK pursuant to s. 3 European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and amended by The Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018) this regulation also covers downgrading, I am now claiming in addition, reimbursement of 75% of the fare paid to travel from CPT to LHR on Flight No xxx for which I had a confirmed reservation (PNR no xxxxx). THis amounts to xxx Avios +£××× (for each passenger). Therefore in total I am claiming xxx.
Quite a perfect response and saved for future use just in case!
Thank you @JBD, @AJA, @Lady London and @Northern Lass for your very helpful replies. To clarify the offer of compensation was for £200 each not £400. The alternative offer was for a £600 e-voucher expiring 2/4/24 which would have limited value for me as I understand it can’t be used to pay for seat bookings or taxes and our holiday plans and bookings for the next 12 months are more or less already in place.
I will make a claim for reimbursement set out as suggested and let you know how I get on.
Isn’t it disappointing though that when the cost of compensating an Avios ticket holder for a downgrade is so much less than compensating someone with a cash ticket BA are still not prepared to fulfil their obligations under EU/ UK 261 without subjecting their loyal customers, already upset by an unexpected long, uncomfortable flight, to the additional aggravation and stress of a fight to obtain their legal entitlement!For those that know and out of interest, if the passengers choose to fly with another carrier (assuming available of course) in a business class cabin, would BA be liable for the cost to be reclaimed?
the law gives you travel in comparable conditions so that can of worms should be avoided.
If you were forced to do it due to lack of other availability you could argue it provided you could prove it but it would be a nightmare that should be avoided. This is where your insurance co might prove easier to convince than an airline that’s trying to dodge paying out on your EU261 rights
Good luck @CherylD. I agree that it is very poor that reward bookings, especially 2-4-1s, are seen as an easy target for downgrading.
And that offer of £200 cash each or an eVoucher for £600 is derisory.
Fortunately EC261 is on your side. As Lady London says you may have to go to MCOL or CEDR to get what’s owed but I’d say you have a good case.
Thank you @JBD, @AJA, @Lady London and @Northern Lass for your very helpful replies. To clarify the offer of compensation was for £200 each not £400. The alternative offer was for a £600 e-voucher expiring 2/4/24 which would have limited value for me as I understand it can’t be used to pay for seat bookings or taxes and our holiday plans and bookings for the next 12 months are more or less already in place.
I will make a claim for reimbursement set out as suggested and let you know how I get on.
Isn’t it disappointing though that when the cost of compensating an Avios ticket holder for a downgrade is so much less than compensating someone with a cash ticket BA are still not prepared to fulfil their obligations under EU/ UK 261 without subjecting their loyal customers, already upset by an unexpected long, uncomfortable flight, to the additional aggravation and stress of a fight to obtain their legal entitlement!No difference in what the law is that BA should compensate or reimburse under EU261 or UK equivalent – they are just trying it on.
Make their day by telling them that actually after being picked on like this you have no use for any more avios than you would already have from other sources so if they don’t reimburse promptly and if you have to take it any further [by which you mean CEDR or particularly if MCOL, where this works really well, though you don’t have to say those are what you mean], then your claim will be in tbe form of cash at their published rack rate of 1.6p per avios due to you, instead, as well as 75% of the remaining cash paid, for each seat at the rate reimbursable to you for the first seat, which is what you’re entitled to.
Not 1.6p/Avios anymore as the price is going up on Monday. See Rob’s article from yesterday.
Not 1.6p/Avios anymore as the price is going up on Monday. See Rob’s article from yesterday.
The option of seeking the cash alternative was never available at the passenger’s option anyway.
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