Forums › Frequent flyer programs › British Airways Executive Club › Amex 241 downgrade at CEDR – next steps?
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Today’s thread about a Tokyo 241 downgrade reminded me to post.
Briefly: LHR-SFO/LAX-LHR booked in F. Return leg cancelled. Rerouted AA F LAX-JFK BA J JFK-LHR (this last leg being the downgrade).
I used Mennens to calculate downgraded leg as a proportion of the overall journey and claimed reimbursement of 75% of proportionate Avios and airline charges for TWO passengers (due to the voucher). BA denied any liability for so got to deadlock.
Claim with CEDR eventually got BA offer of £19. Whilst the claim was with CEDR an Avios deposit of roughly the amount claimed for ONE passenger had appeared in my account, but with no detail of what it was supposed to be. I rejected BA’s offer, and the latest is an offer to convert the Avios deposited – now supposed to be settlement of my claim – into £s (at a disadvantageous rate) – because my claim is for money.
I don’t intend to accept this as I think it’s disingenuous on BA’s part, but I do have a few questions for the brains trust here: 1. I’ve only previously taken BA to task with MCOL where only money can be claimed. Can CEDR make an award of Avios (and can I revise my claim at this stage)? 2. I’ve seen some advice here previously about referring to the voucher as consideration, but I can’t find it. What’s the best way to explain reasoning for BA’s liability for reimbursement for 2 passengers where a voucher has been used?
Finally, there was clear evidence via FT (I think about 6 years ago) that BA was deliberately selecting AmEx voucher redemption passengers for downgrades etc. I do hope we’re not back to that again, but it’s not looking good – albeit with a small sample size.
Finally, there was clear evidence via FT (I think about 6 years ago) that BA was deliberately selecting AmEx voucher redemption passengers for downgrades etc. I do hope we’re not back to that again, but it’s not looking good – albeit with a small sample size.[/quote]
Good luck, keep us informed.
Even though 241 use less avios. BA have the same liability for compensation whether a 241 is used as for a normal redemption. Even though you have paid less no logic for BA picking on 241s . Unless of course they think 90% of people don’t understand rights with a 241 and think they can get away with compensation based on one ticket.
@BH – I am afraid this sounds rather muddled and you are letting BA run and deliberately confuse the process when you, as the claimant, need to be firmly in charge. This does not bode well. There shouldn’t be any argument as to the quantum of your claim which you need to set out very clearly for the adjudicator. These random cash or Avios sums popping up during the process but outside the process are designed to befuddle the adjudicator and might just work.
I have previously written about the issue of the voucher being a form of ‘consideration’ whereas BA often claims the second seat is free. You are due the identical sum for both seats.
The second seat isn’t ‘free’ because what actually happens is that BA accepts the voucher in lieu of the Avios as consideration for that seat. So, if your trip is 100k Avios each, total cost 200k + taxes x 2, BA accepts payment in the form of 100k Avios, plus the voucher plus cash taxes to cover the flights for two. It works similarly for solo use.
BA may also play on the fact that the voucher is ‘free’ so it doesn’t count but the reality is that you have to take out a £300 credit card and spend (up to now) £10k. If you don’t pay for the card, you don’t get the premium voucher.
You need to act quickly to get this back on track and stop BA playing around.
@JDB – I agree that my post is a bit confusing, but that’s partially the consequence of BA messing around.
Perhaps a little clearer if I do a timeline (I’ve omitted dates, but the sequence is correct).
Claim to BA
BA says deadlock
Claim to CEDR for 40,800 Avios + £132 per passenger.
BA deposits 63750 Avios in BAEC account
BA acknowledges 85k Avios + companion voucher + £1105.42 paid, but the Avios cited is just one-way; actual 170k.
BA’s offer is 63,750 Avios – which is the amount already paid + £51.
I rejected citing companion voucher value.
BA makes new offer to remove 63,750 from BAEC account and pay equivalent in cash at nearly 1.8p each. (I was wrong in my initial post about this being disadvantageous) plus the initial £51.As you can see, we’re actually not that far apart, but BA doesn’t show any calculations, gives the companion voucher no value and refers to ‘taxes’ (and presumably calculates based on this rather than the carrier surcharge ‘YQ’)
I’ve done the Mennens calculation again based on the downgraded distance as a percentage of the whole itinerary vs the one-way. It makes minimal difference to the outcome: R/T 63%, O/W 32%. As the each way distances are within 100 miles, the end calculation is close: R/T 40,323 each, O/W 40,654 each. My original calculation used rounded numbers: 170,000 x 32% x 75% = 40,800. Similarly, the YQ round trip: £550 x 32% x 75% = £132. (All per passenger.)
I’ve just had a lightbulb moment. The 63,750 is 75% of the whole one-way Avios for one passenger of 85,000. If they doubled that I’d be happy, so I am not sure I should point this out to them!
@BH – I would like to help, but the new info makes it even more confusing. I’m not sure why there is actually a dispute at all. From what you say BA offered c. £1,150 to settle vs your ask of £1,080 (40.8k Avios x 2 + £132 x 2). In that you are getting the CV value by getting the Avios for both seats when you have only paid for one.
@JDB because 40.8k x 2 = 81.6k x 1.6p = £1305.60 and £132 x 2 = £264.00. This totals £1,569.60, which is not £1150. I don’t know where £1080 comes from. Actually, I can see you’ve valued the Avios at 1p, but you can’t buy them for that generally, so BA would either have to pay up the Avios + money or money with a higher price per Avios – which even it’s calc used.
You can buy them at 0.92p just boost any you’ve earned in the past 12 months x3 so unless you haven’t earned 27k then there’s really no issue buying them for that.
At 0.92p your ask is worth about £1,015 which means you’ll be potentially c14k Avios or £135 ahead.
I believe CEDR can get the airline to give you Avios while MCOL can’t. So you could end up fighting on principle to basically lose out on £135 or win c£350 (since MCOL isn’t free) but I prefer an easy life so I’d probably just take the £1,150 and be done.
Also you still flew in J and £400 is the max a leg in transcon F is worth. So getting £575 each back seems like a win to me.
@BH it feels as though this case has only ended up at CEDR through a series of miscommunications. I think you might be advised to settle the matter as when there’s confusion, there’s a much greater risk of CEDR not finding in your favour. BA has in a slightly peculiar way made the correct offer.
Whilst I don’t agree that BA has applied the law correctly, the cash in exchange for Avios offer – which is odd – is to my advantage so I have decided to settle. As @JDB points out the risk of CEDR misunderstanding this muddle is high and I can per @TGLoyalty buy back the Avios via a drip of Boosts in the coming months. (NB – The 12-months in one go was a supposed one-off, the usual is preceding 30 days.)
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