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Ive just had an email off BA to state my BA flight from Doha to London Heathrow has been downgraded from First to Club (paid via a companion with avios for 2 adults, 1 child and 1 infant). The refund amount wasnt clear so I rang to investigate further, on speaking to the agent, who was very helpful and as dumbfounded as myself, she found out that the refund was to pay 40,000 avios and get a refund of £9 for this imposed downgrade to club world or alternatively do nothing and accept the downgrade without recieving anything. She was complicit in my thoughts this was highly unusual and an unacceptable offering for a downgrade in classes, so she pointed me to the complaints procedure, which I have duly completed and await reply.
As avios scholars, I thought my fellow readers could share if anyone has had a similar experience or if this is totally unprecedented circumstance due to the recent changes in club avios fees, whereas first avios redemption were unaffected by recent changes and therefore BA havent thought through this tangled web as yet?
Thanks
BA’s standard offer is to refund the difference between the two classes (which will often give a minimal result) whereas UK261 provides that you will be refunded 75% of the fare paid in Avios and cash (less any cash actually paid out in taxes/third party charges) and that applies per person, even though you used the 241. There’s a fairly high prospect BA won’t pay in accordance with the statutory requirement, so will need to be pursued via CEDR or MCOL.
Isn’t there a suitable alternative flight you could be put on which has First?
Have you flown yet?
You need to wait until after then before making any claim for the 75% as outlined so ably by @JDB
This does look like- as you say – a result of the recent changes – rather than anything nefarious.
Thanks, yes I had seen that CEDR was the outlet to further the complaint should they be unable to fulfil their statutory requirements, im hopeful they see this as a bespoke instance and offer a refund that is proportionate to the downgrade they are proposing, but Im also dubious that they will and will try fobbing me off with the standard response.
As for alternative flights, the next flight with first is 2 days later, which would be a right pain and expense having booked all transfers/parking/hotels etc; for a problem created by BA’s love to tinker with aircraft changes, no doubt with one that doesnt accomodate first seats.
So as you say if it isnt nefarious intentions, it may suggest that this will be considered with due care and attention of setting a new precedenet for such a class change; but I suppose the proof will be in the pudding when they reply.
Flights not until November 26th
So am I right in guessing that just the avios part of the downgrade reimbursement BA owes you, has a value claimable in court at MCOL, of £2,880 for the 2 seats? Plus the 75% of most of the cash paid for BA’s so-called “charges and taxes”, so most of the 75% cash cost also paid (as not much true tax from DOH), for each of the two seats?
So under EU261 BA owes you downgrade reimbursement somewhere between £3,300 and £4,000 in total?
And *how* much did BA offer you? The £9 [“true” tax from DOH?] and 40,000 avios with a value of £649, in total?
Hmmmm £649.. or closer to £4,000….
British Airways is royally taking the pi$$. Do they think you’re a fool?
Wondering would Bott&Co take this if you’re too busy to pursue it, it’s open and shut and easy 1/3rd or so for them.
I’d do MCOL for the monetary value of the avios as cash is more satisfying and flexible than avios. For the figures above I used previous BA selling rack rate of 1.6p per avios but it’s more now as BA selling rates increased very recently I think.
You could try asking them to put you on the BA7003 which is the QR A380 which has F. The travel trade guidelines only mention this as an option on BA/AA routings but worth a go, Doha is a BA/QR joint business route
Otherwise as the others have said, if you fly it in J then after travel you can ask for a 75% refund. BA have a different opinion on what is owed for an Avios downgrade but you’ll get it eventually via CEDR or MCOL
That said, they’re still planning on sending F equipped birds on some dates so you could keep an eye out and if F reappears you can ask to be put back
So as you say if it isnt nefarious intentions, it may suggest that this will be considered with due care and attention of setting a new precedenet for such a class change; but I suppose the proof will be in the pudding when they reply.
There is no “new precedent” to be set for a downgrade which, as correctly stated above, can only be claimed after travel if you want to be paid out via the statutory reimbursement rules. If you can negotiate/agree that or something close to it with BA it makes life simpler. For a downgrade, BA has no obligation to book you on another flight with F, but may cooperate. Whatever happens, do not accept the offer of refunding the difference.
You could try asking them to put you on the BA7003 which is the QR A380 which has F. The travel trade guidelines only mention this as an option on BA/AA routings but worth a go, Doha is a BA/QR joint business route
Otherwise as the others have said, if you fly it in J then after travel you can ask for a 75% refund. BA have a different opinion on what is owed for an Avios downgrade but you’ll get it eventually via CEDR or MCOL
That said, they’re still planning on sending F equipped birds on some dates so you could keep an eye out and if F reappears you can ask to be put back
Unfortunately with all elements of the itinerary booked and in place, it would be difficult to change dates, as my quick check if other first tickets on other dates showed some 2-days later, which is in BAs standard change flight time/date option when they give you flight alteration options. I think as suggested the route of flying snd going back for a claim seems the most fruitful.
So am I right in guessing that just the avios part of the downgrade reimbursement BA owes you, has a value claimable in court at MCOL, of £2,880 for the 2 seats? Plus the 75% of most of the cash paid for BA’s so-called “charges and taxes”, so most of the 75% cash cost also paid (as not much true tax from DOH), for each of the two seats?
So under EU261 BA owes you downgrade reimbursement somewhere between £3,300 and £4,000 in total?
And *how* much did BA offer you? The £9 [“true” tax from DOH?] and 40,000 avios with a value of £649, in total?
Hmmmm £649.. or closer to £4,000….
British Airways is royally taking the pi$$. Do they think you’re a fool?
Wondering would Bott&Co take this if you’re too busy to pursue it, it’s open and shut and easy 1/3rd or so for them.
I’d do MCOL for the monetary value of the avios as cash is more satisfying and flexible than avios. For the figures above I used previous BA selling rack rate of 1.6p per avios but it’s more now as BA selling rates increased very recently I think.
It gets better the 40,000 avios is for ME to part ways with my valuable avios to get downgraded, beggars belief really! And yes £9 back is what they calculate the difference in taxes between the classes, which is crazy considering how cheap someone like Qatar Airwars would charge in taxes for the same route; especially considering the new business taxes were meant to be cheaper but the avios more under new redemptions for CW.
It sounds as if there are a plethora of options open to me to pursue which I’m most appreciative of you all sharing. I’m extremely curious what BA complaints team will return with, albeit I’ll not hold my breath for anything worthy of accepting.
Thankfully we are looking at exploring Qatar Privilege club award flights next year and making use of their 2nr standard avios tickets, although for the 3rd ticket I’ll have to buy one of their 2x avios flexible tickets, definitely a pricier avios proposition but one I’m willing to pay for a by all accounts, superior product.
So as you say if it isnt nefarious intentions, it may suggest that this will be considered with due care and attention of setting a new precedenet for such a class change; but I suppose the proof will be in the pudding when they reply.
There is no “new precedent” to be set for a downgrade which, as correctly stated above, can only be claimed after travel if you want to be paid out via the statutory reimbursement rules. If you can negotiate/agree that or something close to it with BA it makes life simpler. For a downgrade, BA has no obligation to book you on another flight with F, but may cooperate. Whatever happens, do not accept the offer of refunding the difference.
Thanks, in your experience how willing are BA to negotiate any reimbursement in line with their statutory obligations? (Factoring in the flight hasn’t been flown yet)
To recap, if I understood correctly….if airline downgrades you
1. refuse compensation if it’s less than 75% of the higher fare’s total cash cost (taxes, surcharges etc Inc)
2. Take the downgraded flight and after claim the 75% of higher fare via mcol or cedr (cedr first?)
If you purchased via Avios , same applies.
Welcoming any corrections. Useful to know
So as you say if it isnt nefarious intentions, it may suggest that this will be considered with due care and attention of setting a new precedenet for such a class change; but I suppose the proof will be in the pudding when they reply.
There is no “new precedent” to be set for a downgrade which, as correctly stated above, can only be claimed after travel if you want to be paid out via the statutory reimbursement rules. If you can negotiate/agree that or something close to it with BA it makes life simpler. For a downgrade, BA has no obligation to book you on another flight with F, but may cooperate. Whatever happens, do not accept the offer of refunding the difference.
Thanks, in your experience how willing are BA to negotiate any reimbursement in line with their statutory obligations? (Factoring in the flight hasn’t been flown yet)
BA won’t negotiate on this and nor should they. Prior to travel BA simply owes you the difference between F and J and with the recent RFS changes, that can be minimal; the tax difference may just be currency. You only become entitled to the UK261 downgrade reimbursement after you have suffered that downgrade (ie after travel) so BA isn’t going to provide a large handout today that is not currently statutorily owed.
To recap, if I understood correctly….if airline downgrades you
1. refuse compensation if it’s less than 75% of the higher fare’s total cash cost (taxes, surcharges etc Inc)
2. Take the downgraded flight and after claim the 75% of higher fare via mcol or cedr (cedr first?)
If you purchased via Avios , same applies.
Welcoming any corrections. Useful to know
I think I would just add at (2), claim via BA in the first instance (post-flight), with Letter Before Action if phone/email/webform gets nowhere, then proceed to CEDR if BA either doesn’t respond at all, or refuses to provide your statutory rights. That still leaves you the option of MCOL if need be. NB reimbursement, not compensation 😉
That said, it may all get sorted out on the day or in the interim. Some years ago I had an Avios 241 redemption to Japan, Club out, First back. A few months before travel I noticed the inbound had been downgraded to Club. BA didn’t notify me of course, and I only spotted it by chance. Called them, nothing offered, not even fare difference. Went round the houses, usual story. Ultimately, got to check in at the LHR First wing for the outbound (flying Club but had OW status), mentioned the situation, and the agent promised a manager would come and see us in the lounge, which they did about half an hour later. Had a good chat, mentioned EU261 etc. I thought she handled it very well actually – first thing she did was send us off to enjoy the Concorde Room while she looked into it, then came back a while later with a solution, which was to switch our return flight from NRT to HND and upgrade us to First, so we’d basically get the cabins we’d originally booked just the other way around. Fine by us! (Though it would have saved a lot of frustration and wasted time if the first phone agent I spoke to at the outset could have suggested that). Icing on the cake was we got to the gate to find our outbound also upgraded, so we ended up flying F both ways 🙂 So if all else fails, definitely mention it at check in!
You could try asking them to put you on the BA7003 which is the QR A380 which has F. The travel trade guidelines only mention this as an option on BA/AA routings but worth a go, Doha is a BA/QR joint business route
Otherwise as the others have said, if you fly it in J then after travel you can ask for a 75% refund. BA have a different opinion on what is owed for an Avios downgrade but you’ll get it eventually via CEDR or MCOL
That said, they’re still planning on sending F equipped birds on some dates so you could keep an eye out and if F reappears you can ask to be put back
Unfortunately with all elements of the itinerary booked and in place, it would be difficult to change dates, as my quick check if other first tickets on other dates showed some 2-days later, which is in BAs standard change flight time/date option when they give you flight alteration options. I think as suggested the route of flying snd going back for a claim seems the most fruitful.
BA7004 is on the same day. But to be honest on such a short run away, the time of day and the juicy compo on offer with a bit of legwork I’d just stick with it !
@JDB I disagree with your assertion that
Prior to travel BA simply owes you the difference between F and J and with the recent RFS changes, that can be minimal; the tax difference may just be currency. You only become entitled to the UK261 downgrade reimbursement after you have suffered that downgrade (ie after travel)
The relevant paragraphs are as follows:
Article 10
Upgrading and downgrading
1. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment.
2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3),reimburse(a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less, or
(b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and
the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1,500 and 3,500 kilometres, or
(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas
departments.Nowhere in the above does it say you actually have to travel to be due the reimbursement. The technical wording used is “places a passenger in a class” either higher or lower than purchased.
I would argue that notifying of a change of class in advance of the flight is the same as doing it on the day. The intention is that BA is expecting you to travel in a different class to the one you purchased.
BA, of course, takes the view that notifying you in advance absolves them of their responsibility under EC261/2004 and the subsequent adoption into UK law.
They also say you have to actually travel in the lower class before claiming although there is no mention of this in Article 10.
Also merely refunding you the difference in Avios (and associated TFCs) between the two classes is their attempt to get around their obligations.
I would claim downgrade reimbursement of 75% of the fare plus taxes fees and charges quoting Article 10 and deduct any Avios and cash (if refunded in the interim) treating that as an interim payment. Or being cheeky I might claim the full amount and treat the Avios I received as a Customer Service goodwill gesture.
This comes from the ECJ ruling. Can’t remember on top of my head which one.
In any case, BA can still place passenger in F at the last minute at the gate or even before and then no compensation would be due. At the moment they are planning to fly an aircraft without F, but that could change.
@AJA there is a simple reason. If the passenger were now paid the 75% downgrade reimbursement and then subsequently cancelled his booking, he would have made a significant profit for a downgrade that he never suffered; that clearly isn’t the intention of the law. Unfortunately, most of how EC261 applies isn’t written in the text but has to be found in the interpretative guidelines and ECJ decisions, but downgrade reimbursement is definitely after the event only. Prior to that it is a simple fare difference reimbursement only. This now ancient law really envisaged downgrading being something that happened at the airport. It is for this reason also that BA will dispute the EC261 reimbursement by saying they offered (and pax refused) an F alternative and that this wasn’t a downgrade at all but an agreed rerouting following an aircraft change or cancellation and rebooking with more than two weeks notice. It’s not a great argument, but BA doesn’t necessarily lose either and it’s enough money for them to fight.
And everyone, you haven’t read properly what BA is telling OP. They are asking them to pay 40k Avios to get £9 refund which is outrageous.
And everyone, you haven’t read properly what BA is telling OP. They are asking them to pay 40k Avios to get £9 refund which is outrageous.
Ahem I read it properly because my first comemnt acknowledges what the OP wrote.
This does look like- as you say – a result of the recent changes – rather than anything nefarious.
And everyone, you haven’t read properly what BA is telling OP. They are asking them to pay 40k Avios to get £9 refund which is outrageous.
Ahem I read it properly because my first comemnt acknowledges what the OP wrote.
This does look like- as you say – a result of the recent changes – rather than anything nefarious.
Yes, but subsequent replies don’t address this. Apologies.
This statement on the re-booking page seems a little insidious, in the way if accepting the changes, surely that circumvents BA’s respnsiblity to adhere to EC261, as contractually youve accpeted the terms of the change from the original booking.
If you’d like to cancel your booking you will need to accept this new itinerary or find a different flight. You can then review your cancellation options in Manage My Booking where normal fare and refund rules will apply..
In response to aforementioned replies, yes it is very much the case that BA was requiring ME to pay 40,000 avios for a donwgrade, or alternatively purely doing nothing and travelling in the downgraded club world seats.
As the OP for the thread ill keep dropping on BAs updates to give more food for thought, hopefully the first of which is very shortly……….
If the flight is in November, you could always just chill out and wait for BA to almost inevitably change the schedule again. You might well then have First reinstated on your preferred day of travel. I don’t see the need for any hand wringing or fury at this stage.
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