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Whether someone has tried to pull a freebie or not, its simply unacceptable that you could be stranded on the other side of the world because a ridiculous e-ticket has not been issued.
They were not stranded, they got on the next plane back albeit the next day. Furthermore, they were denied boarding because they did not pay taxes and did not pay Avios. In OPs case, this whole thing could have been easily avoided, but (I suspect) they wanted to chance a freebie
… I believe this to be true – that payment did not have to be made for a contract to be valid. However in the OP’s original case (I haven’t read the whole thread), it appears that this was NOT the case (there was no acceptance by BA and no consideration was agreed)
@lhar this much I do know. BA and the passenger agreed a price for a ticket, and that it was going ahead (agreed on both sides). That’s a contract.
There was even an phone call where the contract was confirmed to exist. So that’s extra to just doing it online. That’s powerful additional confirmation as to a contract having been made. So not just online, there was also personal contact between the parties and clear the contract had been agreed.
BA also sent emails confirming, showed it in MMB, and the passenger could book seats. All further confirmation to a normal passenger that the contract was in place. Even experts like us wouldn’t expect to see these normal things, if BA had failed to provide what was agreed. A normal passenger with a busy life would have no idea they had to check BA’s homework, with these normal evidences in front of them.
BA’s contract also doesn’t proof them as it was their own mistake that led the passenger not to receive the correct ticket agreed in a timely manner and that was entirely under the control of British Airways.
Thus opening up the opportunity for statutory compensation to the passenger for denied boarding.
Whether someone has tried to pull a freebie or not, its simply unacceptable that you could be stranded on the other side of the world because a ridiculous e-ticket has not been issued.
They were not stranded, they got on the next plane back albeit the next day. Furthermore, they were denied boarding because they did not pay taxes and did not pay Avios. In OPs case, this whole thing could have been easily avoided, but (I suspect) they wanted to chance a freebie
@kaiW90 I have held back on this but there could be a point of view that accusations can sometimes reflect the accuser’s general experience more than the accused in the situation.
@kaiW90 I have held back on this but there could be a point of view that accusations can sometimes reflect the accuser more than the accused. In a more tolerant generous society anyway.
I’ve openly said that I would have done the same as OP if I didn’t know about ticketing issues. Who doesn’t love an expensive freebie?? I once had two vacuum cleaners sent to me even though I only bought one – I kept them both 🙂
The mental gymnastics going on here to paint the OP as the innocent busy victim and BA as 100% in the wrong is just incredible.
@lhar this much I do know. BA and the passenger agreed a price for a ticket, and that it was going ahead (agreed on both sides). That’s a contract.
There was even an phone call where the contract was confirmed to exist. So that’s extra to just doing it online. That’s powerful additional confirmation as to a contract having been made. So not just online, there was also personal contact between the parties and clear the contract had been agreed.
Are you talking about the OP? How could OP and BA have agreed on a price if BA needed to call them back once they calculated the taxes? BA never called them back, OP never chased, no price agreed, no taxes paid, no avios taken.
Since you keep mentioning contract, BA contract of carriage says they can refuse to carry a passenger if they’ve not paid their fares. Can you address this?
I am not saying it is OPs fault entirely, and it is definitely not BAs fault entirely either. They both made mistakes which led to that scenario.
Whether someone has tried to pull a freebie or not, its simply unacceptable that you could be stranded on the other side of the world because a ridiculous e-ticket has not been issued.
They were not stranded, they got on the next plane back albeit the next day. Furthermore, they were denied boarding because they did not pay taxes and did not pay Avios. In OPs case, this whole thing could have been easily avoided, but (I suspect) they wanted to chance a freebie
in which case why does BA’s IT allow the customer to pick a seat if they haven’t got a ticket.
“in which case why does BA’s IT allow the customer to pick a seat if they haven’t got a ticket.”
This is what I find interesting. When I had no e-ticket number I couldn’t choose a seat or check in. I assumed (wrongly) it was because the flight was oversold as there were no tickets available to purchase.
@MickS – it’s nothing to do with BA’s IT being defective as you imply. Perhaps it’s fun mindlessly to blame BA and its IT for every perceived wrong, but most airline operate in this way with lots of scenarios that enable you to book a specific seat without having a ticket or a fully paid ticket. Ultimately however, if you don’t have a ticket you won’t be able to fly and the ability to book a specific seat changes nothing in this regard.
@LadyLondon – I’m intrigued as to whether if you had booked to go to the theatre, Wimbledon etc. you would just turn up without a ticket assuming that one had been issued? Would you not check that one had both been issued and that it was correct? All the people you are supporting did neither. That seems rather reckless and a quick check would have avoided the issues complained of. All this blaming and criticism doesn’t actually help the passenger outcome which to me is all that matters. The passenger is free not to check, encounter the issue, have their trip delayed then seek compensation, but is that a good outcome?
If if E-ticket are so vital I still want to know how to get a eticket, the BA website MMB only gives access to eticket Receipt, even that is not available for Avios.
For every booking and every change in booking you should get an email Eticket receipt. That works perfectly contains every bit of information needed, but please tell me how to download the coupon.
@kaiW90 you write “BA contract of carriage says they can refuse to carry a passenger if they’ve not paid their fares”. Correct, this is the mechanism by which BA denies you boarding. You need to pay the fare and BA in turn issues an e-ticket which then allows check in to issue a boarding pass to proceed to the plane. No ticket means no BP means no boarding.
The issue is who is most at fault for the ticketing failure?
It was clearly OP’s fault for not checking they had a valid ticket (not a contractual obligation on the part of the customer, merely advisable) and for not following up and insisting on paying (definitely contractual). But they did try to do that when they spent 2 hours on the phone at the airport trying to pay. So OP can demonstrate that they have the intention of carrying out their contractual obligation prior to travel. They do not intend to get a freebie.
BA on the other hand failed to calculate taxes and collect payment which is why they did not issue the ticket leading to the denied boarding. BA said they would contact the customer with the confirmed fare and take payment. But they failed to do so. That is BA’s fault.
BA further could not resolve the issue in 2 hours when the customer was on the phone to them at the airport. That is also BA’s fault.
Why does it take so long to take a payment? Why can’t BA just take a token payment and issue a ticket and resolve the calculation of the correct amount after travel? Plenty of businesses work on credit, you agree to pay within 30 days but receive the goods immediately. BA instead says no travel if total payment is not made in advance. That is BA’s decision on how it operates.
I’m not suggesting that BA gives every passenger the chance to pay after travel. I’m saying in the odd case where it is down to BA’s failure to do what they said they would BA should take the financial hit. This seems to be mainly Avios reward seat related too so perhapslimit this option to reward tickets. Either do that or pay denied boarding compensation as a result. BA can’t have it both ways.
@JDB you keep going on about turning up to “the theatre Wimbledon etc. you would just turn up without a ticket assuming that one had been issued?”Frankly those organisations have better IT and more robust systems than BA and issue tickets successfully. But the big difference with those organisations is that they have ticketing offices on site where you can pay on the day (assuming the event isn’t sold out).
BA shut down its airport ticketing ability. Why is it the customer’s fault that BA’s off-site ticketing facility is only contactable by phone and cannot issue a ticket in 2 hours leading to them denying passengers flying as booked?
@Garethgerry it’s not vital to have a physical ticket. What is vital is that the e-ticket is issued. The e stands for electronic ie virtual. It is attached to your booking reference, the PNR, which is the wrapper to which the physical boarding pass or e-boarding pass (those on your phone) is also attached to and allows you to board the plane and take your allocated seat.
So all you need to do is check that BA has issued the e-ticket and that it is attached to your PNR. The easiest and most reliable method is to use Finnair’s website and via its version of MMB you can email yourself the e-ticket receipt which will list the e-ticket number.
@AJA – the issue isn’t who is most at fault as you suggest. Frankly, who cares? You and a small number of others here make it all about blame rather than solutions. That really doesn’t assist the passenger. There’s also no point in identifying a raft of things that you think BA should do without analysing the facts.
The issue is that whatever mode of transport you take or public event you attend, you need a ticket.
Why wait until you pitch up at the airport for someone else to check your ticket exists when you could so easily have done this?
I have mentioned theatre tickets etc. because most of us check those, so why on earth wouldn’t one check air tickets – that they exist and are correct? It seems quite bizarre.
Your focus seems to be on the absence of a ticket desk and compensation when the passengers whose issues you assiduously copied yesterday would never have needed to consider either if they had checked their tickets in advance. You seem to prefer the option of sitting back, making a lot of assumptions and doing nothing until crisis point.
IATA ticketing regulations don’t allow tickets to be issued in the manner you suggest.
It was clearly OP’s fault for not checking they had a valid ticket (not a contractual obligation on the part of the customer, merely advisable) and for not following up and insisting on paying (definitely contractual). But they did try to do that when they spent 2 hours on the phone at the airport trying to pay. So OP can demonstrate that they have the intention of carrying out their contractual obligation prior to travel. They do not intend to get a freebie.
@AJA – they only tried to pay after being denied boarding for not paying taxes and avios. They made no attempt to call or chase or pay in the whole 1 year preceding the return flight. I suspect they intended on a freebie up until that pointAgree on BA not following up on the call and taking 2 hours to process payment being BAs fault. But as I have mentioned multiple times already this is a situation that could’ve been easily avoided by OP and it is a fault on both sides.
This conversation would be entirely different if OP had showed any intent on paying before arriving at the airport for the return flight.
@JDB This is my final comment on this thread as we simply disagree. As you have said yourself a ticket is not the only acceptable indicator of an obligation or right under EC261.
We also agree that it is not contractual but merely advisory that a passenger checks they have a ticket. That also applies with any other ticket scenario. So your argument doesn’t hold water.
Theatres etc can issue tickets at the venue BA operationally decided to do away with that option. That is not the customer’s fault.
IATA ticketing regulations don’t allow tickets to be issued in the manner you suggest. That mean BA cannot do something that doesn’t comply with the regulations without suffering the consequences? Therefore BA failing to issue a ticket suggests compensation is due.
So the scenario
Person new to the points game, gets the gold card, racks up some points
Transitions to the BAPP card, clock up more Avios and earns a companion ticket
Never flown BA before, calls to make the booking
Agent gives them a booking reference, customer goes into MMB and can see booking
Customer picks seats (and possibly pays for them, if not first class)Granted most people here know how crap BA are, probably fallen foul of this topic and wiser after the event. But should this newbie rightly assume they are good to travel? Of course they would…
@AJA – I’m not sure it’s just that we disagree, more that I think a) you are barking up the wrong tree b) the facts/evidence in these cases (which are each anyway slightly different) simply don’t support your general/regular anti BA stance and c) the idea that because some sort of contract may exist, the passenger doesn’t or shouldn’t need to check if they have a ticket is just nuts.
So the scenario
Person new to the points game, gets the gold card, racks up some points
Transitions to the BAPP card, clock up more Avios and earns a companion ticket
Never flown BA before, calls to make the booking
Agent gives them a booking reference, customer goes into MMB and can see booking
Customer picks seats (and possibly pays for them, if not first class)Granted most people here know how crap BA are, probably fallen foul of this topic and wiser after the event. But should this newbie rightly assume they are good to travel? Of course they would…
Well you are certainly assuming that this “person new to the points game” is properly thick and greener than a cabbage.
Hopefully they aren’t turning up at the station ticket gates waving just a receipt that doesn’t let them though or getting on a bus with just the receipt for their Travelcard rather than the Travelcard itself. I was able to book my seats at Wimbledon, so I must be able to go in with the receipt but without the tickets. Dear BA, I was able to choose my seats, but I haven’t paid for my ticket and don’t have a ticket, please check-in me in anyway etc. etc. Please!
Please don’t tar everyone with the brush of being quite so daft, helpless and lacking in personal responsibility! You do perfectly illustrate the much cited danger of making assumptions.
Why is BA email receipt for E-ticket inadequate,
I have and everyone should have the eticket number 125…… on the email receipt that BA sends me every time I book or amend a journey.
I studiously check these every time, I book or make a change to a booking.Why am I being told this is inadequate. That you should go to Finniar website to get a copy of something you already have, ie the E-ticket reciept and hence E-ticket number.
@Garethgerry – you mentioned in a previous post that you were a very experienced traveller so your question might appear somewhat Pharisaic!
The simple answer is because a receipt isn’t a travel document and ultimately you need a travel document – an e-ticket coupon(s) to be able to check-in. I acknowledge that in most cases checking your e-ticket receipt is sufficient (as a ticket will exist) but in enough cases it isn’t such that it would be common sense to check the underlying ticket itself. The other reason is that the e-ticket receipt will usually show you an e-ticket number but crucially won’t tell you how many coupons it has.
If you book a BAH you will get an e-ticket receipt with a ticket number but that ticket will not be valid until you pay the balance of the holiday cost. [in case @AJA queries this point, this is made possible because BAH is acting as a travel agent].
If you book yourself through a travel agent or have a company agent you will get your ticket number/confirmation differently.
The bigger issue usually arises if you make a change to your booking voluntarily or following a cancellation. It’s not unique to BA that automated re-issue or failure of manual changes happens. The recalculation of the fare (whether or not the passenger owes more or is due a refund) and taxes/charges which change all the time, partly owing to exchange rates. It can screw up the fare line, particularly if the agent doesn’t do the invol reroute quite right. The nearly ticket then fails validation.
I’m afraid that while some are busy pointing the finger at BA, sometimes justified, sometimes not it’s in the passenger’s interest to check that money and/or Avios have been taken and that a ticket exists for every segment for every passenger. Sounds boring, maybe is, but checking all types of travel tickets, hotel bookings etc. may save a lot of time and trouble later. Some here seem to get off on the idea that the BA has made a mistake so yippee you are maybe owed compensation. I just want enjoyable but uneventful travel.
I’m sure that with all your travel experience, you will have encountered plenty of airline error as I have.
@Garethgerry – after my post above, I remembered a personal example from last year re the receipt not sufficing. Booked a Qantas domestic flight on Avios. After a few months that flight was cancelled and I was rebooked onto another one hour later. I accepted the change and received the standard e-ticket receipt. I later checked and found that an e-ticket was attached to the cancelled segment but not the new one. Had I not checked and just turned up at the QF desk I would have been ticketless. Not much fun to sort that out from Australia after 23 hours travelling. As it was, they put me on an earlier flight which was great. A few minutes checking and quick call to BA saved a lot of angst.
This is one of these posts that I read with interest but did not engage in as I did not have anything to add.
But, several pages in, I cannot take it any more.
The original poster was unfortunate but needs to shoulder some of the blame. The most valuable comparison is insurance as it has been demonstrated many a time that if you have not paid, you are not covered. Even if you thought you had paid or you had signed a direct debit mandate and the money has not been taken, you are not covered.
As for the posters showing detailed knowledge of the process of e-ticket issuance and all the vagaries involved, come on! This is beyond the wit of 99% of the travelling public.
The significant majority of people will assume that if payment has been taken and they have a reservation confirmation via email then they are good to go. Indeed it is such a routine thing that the need to check your e-ticket is rarely emphasised.
Case in point, I recently was allowed to change a flight, incredibly kindly, by Virgin Atlantic on the day of travel (I❤️VA is replacing the scar left from the removal of my I❤️JDB tattoo). Because this involved invoking a Virgin Atlantic policy, had to be checked by a supervisor, and the ticket reissued for travel three days later, the agent stressed the importance of receiving a revised e-ticket and clearly stated I needed to look out for an email confirming ticketing and if I had not received it overnight to get back in touch.
I have never been told this before in many, many flight bookings (and changes).
Same here, @Froggee (the e-ticket thing, not the Virgin change or the tattoo).
People do forget a wide variety of things and I guess it also depends on how important something is to you. However, I myself live in perpetual fear of being turned away at an airport for not having the correct documentation, so tend to check everything to an almost obsessive level between booking and travelling. This paid off earlier this year when I made 2 rather complicated, separate bookings for me and my OH, and realised during one of my checks that I had neglected to book his flight back from LHR to MAN at the end of the trip, which would have made him very grumpy!
I’m also unlikely to forget to check whether payment has been taken as it will probably be counting towards a SUB or a voucher 😂
Dear Mr @Froggee
I know I am no longer on your cake list, so I hope you won’t be too disappointed when I say that I was utterly delighted by your inaugural post on this bizarre thread.
It was not only commonsensical but you also, slightly controversially for HfP forums, went with the evidence rather than the (anti) BAying crowd judging that the OP shared some blame, cited the insurance analogy as I did at our outset (no premium, no cover equating to no ticket, no fly) and advised that Virgin supports the view that it’s an actual e-ticket you need; no other document suffices. It’s taken a lot of verbiage to get that basic point confirmed. Hopefully it will henceforth help many HfP readers.
While I am sad to learn that I have been usurped by an upstart airline on your esteemed cheek, I am more concerned about the misspelling and how that will be addressed. What favour did Virgin Australia do for you?
Love
JDBI expect if you ask most ppl on a plane what their ticket is, they will say their boarding pass 🙂 It doesnt seem like the sort of thing the typical flyer would know or care about to differentiate.
I still have many old and unused Northwest and Republic, Mid 80’s paper tickets. Criss crossing N America.
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