British Airways – cancelled flight and refusal of expenses

[dannywright]

Difficult one. We were due to fly LGW/AGP on July 24. Me and 12 year old son. Booked separately with different booking refs. Full fare J class.

Flight canx at very short notice (we were at the airport and had already checked baggage in). We were offered alternative flights leaving LGW the following day.

The flights arranged for my son were to Porto, then Madrid on July 25, overnight stop in MAD then Madrid/Málaga on July 26. Two days later.

They wanted to send me to Alicante, then Madrid, [overnight] then MAD/AGP. Super convoluted and of course my son wouldn’t have been able to fly alone anyway, let alone two transfers in foreign airports AND an overnight stay in Madrid. ALONE!

No one was available at LGW. Phone line not being answered. Zero assistance offered. We were told to sort ourselves out and claim back later.

We made our own arrangements via Madrid and to Jerez.

British Airways is agreeing to 350 pounds compensation, but not any expenses, which total approx 2.500 with two flights, hotel, trains, car hire etc etc.. They have said that because they offered an alternative flight, that we aren’t entitled to receive any expenses back.

It’s a bit trite and entitled, but I was once GGL with BA and just don’t travel very often any more and I am just flabbergasted as to how they are treating me.

Anyone have experience of this? How do I resolve?

[davedent]

Ask if this is their final response – stating that it is your intention to go to MCOL/ CEDR.
If it is their final response – reject it and lodge a claim with CEDR (arbitration).
The very most in will cost you is £25 and even if you lose you have the satisfaction of knowing you have cost them 1000s.
Status has nothing to do with it I’m Gold – they treat everyone in an equally rubbish manner.

[PeteM]

Indeed, absolutely standard. Recently they’ve been giving in after a few email exchanges – see my experience here: https://www.headforpoints.com/forums/topic/chat-thread-tuesday-6th-august/

Many people will give up, it’s a win win for them to try and fob you off.

[TGLoyalty]

When you say hotels, trains and car hire was this things you were meant to use but couldn’t because you were late as that’s what insurance is for.

BA should pay for any hotel/food under duty of care if you had to spend the night at/around LGW and the actual flight/method of travel to get you to AGP/final destination but if you were going to hire a car at AGP to get to your actual final destination then that’s your cost/insurance claim anyway.

[JDB]

@dannywright – you don’t mention any alternatives discussed with BA and in reality BA isn’t that easy to contact, but also not entirely uncontactable. If you have two separate bookings, this is inevitably going to create difficulties in the event of disruption. If a BA agent told you to sort yourselves out and claim later, that’s still going to be governed by reasonableness and £2,500 isn’t likely to be considered reasonable. Once you refuse rerouting options, you do need to proceed cautiously if you wish to be reimbursed.

Your final question is how to resolve the matter. The key is to approach BA in a calm a professional manner, showing that you mean business but without any general rant. I’m afraid that if your claim was like your post, the response was inevitable.

I would respond to BA saying that while they have agreed Article 7 compensation, they haven’t covered the cost of the alternative travel arrangements you were obliged to make in the face if their failure to reroute you in any timely or appropriate manner in accordance with the requirements of Article 8. Then give a simple chronology of events, contact with BA and a schedule of the costs incurred taking care only to include those costs to which you are specifically entitled for the rerouting and Right to Care. If you add other things, it’s more likely your whole claim will get rejected or shredded.

One think that perturbs me and I think would become an issue at CEDR or MCOL is that you say you paid full fare J class for the tickets. As such, if they were refunded, it ought to cover your rerouting costs. Obviously, if you buy a cheap Club fare or have an Avios ticket which you need to replace with a last minute Club ticket, that will cost a whole lot more, but a real full fare J ticket shouldn’t.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

dannywright wrote:

British Airways is agreeing to 350 pounds compensation, but not any expenses, which total approx 2.500 with two flights, hotel, trains, car hire etc etc.. They have said that because they offered an alternative flight, that we aren’t entitled to receive any expenses back.

It’s a bit trite and entitled, but I was once GGL with BA and just don’t travel very often any more and I am just flabbergasted as to how they are treating me.

Anyone have experience of this? How do I resolve?

If you break those costs down for us saying how much you spent on each element and why we might be able to tell you why you rejected your claim. BA need specifics (just like say your insurance company would want).

It may be tempting to throw a mass of stuff at BA and let them sort it out but that’s not how it works. BA aren’t responsible for every single cost you incurred.

Your former status counts for nothing.

[LD27]

dannywright wrote:

No one was available at LGW. Phone line not being answered. Zero assistance offered. We were told to sort ourselves out and claim back later.

I do hope you manage to sort out your claim.

For future reference, if you do decide to use BA from LGW again and you’re landside, there is a desk at the far end of the check in desks close to the entrance to cloakrooms and escalator up to departures. When I was there last month, they were rerouting a number of passengers via Madrid (on the same day) as they had been unable to get on their direct flight to Malaga. Even if on different PNRs, I’m sure they would have helped you and your son to travel together. I might be wrong, but I thought children had to be over 14 to travel alone on BA.

[The real Swiss Tony]

LD27 wrote:

I might be wrong, but I thought children had to be over 14 to travel alone on BA.

This is correct but you can make the second booking on the phone and the agents can override the limitation.

[Londonsteve]

I can’t be the only one keen to know how you generated £2500 in expenses for 2 pax to re-route on a London to Malaga flight. I’m not sure I’d be physically able to even if I tried. A full fare business single is circa £700 on that route and a night in the Hilton Park Lane is £500 (that the airline could legitimately claim isn’t reasonable).

Personally, I’d have taken the refund and compensation and booked myself onto the next available Easyjet flight and be done with, but I appreciate you had the right to re-routing in these circumstances.

[NorthernLass]

I thought you couldn’t make separate bookings for children under 14 any more?

[JDB]

BA’s policy re children under 14 relates to travelling not booking.

While BA won’t allow a child under 14 to travel without an accompanying person under 16, there is no problem making a separate booking, although only by telephone or via an agent as the booking needs to be annotated and linked with the details of the accompanying older person. There are many obvious situations whereby a child might need to be on a separate booking and BA is happy to accommodate this.

[Paul]

There isn’t really enough information here to make a determination however my starting point is always the actual regulations, not what BA or forum posters think is reasonable!
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/contents
It’s irrelevant that you had two PNRs or that one passenger was 14.
It’s also irrelevant that BA offered you alternative flights. BA must offer you three options and you in turn get one choice and just once.
At times of disruption is not unusual to be unable to contact BA and they rarely, if ever, provide written details of what passengers are entitled to. Moreover it is for BA to prove that they did make those details available, and that they provided the three choices.
My most recent experience was for my son. Offloaded at point of boarding due door fault along with 9 others. Reaccommodated 3 hours later. Consequently missed onward bus to ski resort. No advice or guidance provided at LHR beyond pay and claim. I advised him that this was £200 per night plus meals plus taxis to and from hotel plus new bus. On arrival at destination he chose to take a £400 Uber to the resort to avoid losing a day (the reasoning being hotels plus comp covered it)
Claim made to BA who paid Uber in full plus comp, plus 10,000 Avios.
Re routing yourself is always a risk however there is no requirement to take what BA throw at you, especially if it involves night stops where non was required before. This is covered by comparable travel conditions which are not limited to just class of travel.
Nor is there any limit to duty of care. While BA peddle the £200 per night fiction there is no such limit imposed by the regulation. Acting reasonably is also not listed or stated.
BA are not on the hook for lost nights at destination, lost car hire etc as that is for insurance. They are however on the hook for rerouting, plus any hotels and food plus taxis required to get you you to you destination as quickly as possible

[JDB]

@Paul – what you are missing here and on every occasion you repeat it, is that after the event, whether BA offered you the three options is immaterial to the compensation and attracts no sanction or penalty.

You provide a link to the legislation without mentioning the passenger’s duty to mitigate their losses (as a general matter of law) and that while there is no limit on rerouting or ‘right to care’ expenses, the ECJ and Court of Appeal have determined that in these aviation cases, any expenses incurred that you expect to be reimbursed must be “necessary, appropriate and reasonable”. It’s very clear that £2,500 to reroute two people on this journey, even with an extra overnight cannot meet this test.

PS since you are busy trying to tell many of us we are wrong, with the implication that you are better informed, please don’t incorrectly use the term ‘duty of care’. This is something different to Article 9 ‘Right to Care” expenses. BA does of course have a ‘duty of care’ but that’s a different thing not expressly provided for in EC261.

[Paul]

@JDB

I began by saying clearly

“There isn’t really enough information here to make a determination however my starting point is always the actual regulations”

No one is wrong and no one is correct as there is simply not sufficient information.

What is fact however is that there is no limit and while you may be required to spend what is necessary appropriate and reasonable it is impossible to say what that is without further detail.

It is not immaterial that BA fail to comply with their responsibilities on an almost daily basis. They do not provide the information to passengers as required, and they make it difficult for passengers to make claims. Consequently in such circumstances the passenger must often make their own arrangements with almost no guidance unless they are part of forums such as this.

Just the other day I spoke at length to a señior cabin crew member who had no idea that UK261 was a thing or the costs BA could incur.

[points_worrier]

@JDB: I really don’t think you can automatically say £2500 for two is unreasonable. Especially with the lack of info given. With cancelled planes, costs on other airlines max out pretty quickly, especially in business. If it is the cheapest available flight that day under comparable transport conditions (ie same class, same number of stops) then it clearly is covered.

This isn’t quite the case here though: you’d have to argue what ba was offering was unreasonable (which is pretty easy if you’re splitting with your kid, against airline policy). At this cost I would expect screenshots to show you’re taking the cheapest available reasonable flight, but in this case I would argue it should be covered. Such a journey would be ‘necessary, appropriate, and reasonable’ as you put it.

To the OP: if you think your flight choice was reasonable, then do escalate this to CEDR. I would focus on how your actions were necessary, why BA’s options were unreasonable, and how you tried to minimise costs where possible. I would focus on Emotionless facts alone – you can allow yourself a paragraph at the end to explain how it made you feel and the emotional side of it.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

points_worrier wrote:

To the OP: if you think your flight choice was reasonable, then do escalate this to CEDR. I would focus on how your actions were necessary, why BA’s options were unreasonable, and how you tried to minimise costs where possible.

This is the problem. The OP hasn’t come back to give any further details on what they spent. If that £2.5k claim includes a lost hotel night or car hire then that’s definitely not going to be reimbursed by BA.

And if they go to CECR (or MCOL) they are going to have to be a lot more forthcoming with the why’s and wherefores of that spend.

Also OP I find it hard to believe that there were no BA staff at LGW to assist for a flight due to depart and was cancelled shorty before departure in the afternoon.

[strickers]

Yet another example of an OP asking a question then disappearing whilst we go round in circles again!

[ed_fly]

@strickers spot on, we’ve had a few 1st time posters with these bizarre scenarios. Who then disappear without providing key details.

[JDB]

@points_worrier – actually, I think there is ample information here to take a view. The size of the claim at £2,500 and the fact the OP says he had full fare J tickets are central.

While you say prices of flights ‘max out’, IATA prices are published and fixed. It’s not like a hotel that can sell its last standard rooms at £5k if there’s an event in town. Thus it is easy automatically to say the claim at £2,500 doesn’t meet the legal test and just looks opportunistic. BA can actually be relatively generous and regularly pays aspects of claims for which they are not strictly responsible. However, when people make utterly ridiculous claims they are rightly treated accordingly.

If the OP actually had a full fare J ticket, he would have a ticket that you don’t even need BA to apply an out of standard policy reroute for. They could also have bought replacement tickets with any airline on any routing within the MPM, got a refund from BA and not be out of pocket. If the OP used the term “Full fare J class” loosely or exaggeratedly then the story all falls apart as once these inaccuracies appear, the whole narrative is inevitably suspect – and it already had some odd aspects.

[Misty]

Wonder what happened to the OP ????