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Forums Other Flight changes and cancellations help Cancellation, downgrade, 2-1 voucher and re-route to different London airport

  • Swiss Jim 49 posts

    I’ve just received a few hours notice of my flight BER – LCY being cancelled. I have been re-booked on BER – LHR flight departing 40 mins later. I have also been downgraded from Club Europe to Economy. Flight is an Avios booking. I also used a 2-1 voucher (as a single person) – a waste but otherwise it would have expired.

    I have searched for answers but am still a little confused as to my rights.

    For the downgrade, it seems I am entitled only to a 30% refund of the Avios used for that leg. That would seem to be less that the savings in Avios had I simply booked economy (not that there were economy Avios seats at the time). How does that work?

    What’s the impact given the use of the 2-1? Is the compensation based on the Avios required ignoring the 2-1 (otherwise the 2-1 benefit simply evaporates). It seems that it is?

    I fly in and out of LCY given where I live. LHR is inconvenient. Am I right in thinking cancellation compensation kicks in here for a delay of 2 hours plus. And that that delay is timed not from when the plane touches down at LHR but when I get to LCY. Given time to get through LHR airport itself and time LHR – LCY that is bound to be more than 2 hours. I’m guessing I don’t actually need to LCY (and keep the receipt) – I can just route directly home?

    I assume BA have to pay for my tube ticket LHR – LCY?

    Lastly, I assume I’ve no chance now of getting into lounge at Berlin now I’ve been downgraded? And no compensation?

    Thanks!

    JDB 4,515 posts

    Sorry to hear this. Yes, on short haul the difference in Avios or fare between the classes is often greater than the 30% reimbursement, so you should ask for that. You should also either ask (as you suggest) for the full Avios sum to reflect the value of the voucher or return of the voucher unless it’s too close to expiry. BA should pay for your transportation between the airports, but you won’t be eligible for delay compensation for later arrival at your final destination unless the flight arrives at LHR sufficiently late.

    Re the lounge, you need to negotiate that with check-in but there’s no official compensation – all the higher class benefits lost are supposed to be rolled up in the downgrade reimbursement (which is in fact compensation with a different nomenclature to distinguish it from the EC261 liquidated damages schedule).

    There’s no cancellation compensation as you are being rerouted in the -1hr/+2hr window.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    It looks like 2 of the 3 flights from Berlin to LCY today have been cancelled.

    The only one operating is the 5pm departure.

    I don’t think you will get any compensation for the cancelled flight as it might be a knock on of the weather issues yesterday. Buy it might be worth claiming anyway or ask on the specific thread on FT before claiming.

    Your options would be to try to get on to the 5pm flight if that suits you better but as far as I can tell from Google Flights they are only selling economy tickets for that flight.

    I don’t think you have a right to insist on being rerouted in business to LHR although they are still selling business class on the BA991 departing at 11:05 so if that’s the one you’ve been rerouted onto by MMB you could ask nicely.

    Personally I’d take what BA has offered you, fly to LHR and get BA to pay for the tube fare to LCY

    As for the downgrade reimbursement yes it is 30% of the Avios paid for the flight.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Thanks both. Wasn’t aware of the weather issues yesterday but I see lots of other flights are flying into and out of LCY this morning, so not sure why that would be relevant. I may well be wrong.

    Also, I’m convinced it’s the arrival time at my original destination that’s relevant, not at LHR even though that’s in the same city (well, sort-of). And there’s no way that could not be more than 2 hours after scheduled landing time. Doesn’t that give rise to compensation?

    I know it’s not the greatest inconvenience anyone’s ever suffered, but I’d like to get my head around the rules.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    The weather issues yesterday may have resulted in the aircraft allocated to your flight being out of position or even prevented from flying to BER meaning they’d have to cancel your flight back again.

    Just because other airlines are operating it doesn’t automatically follow that so should BA.

    As I said you can try claiming compensation. If the cancellation is not weather related and providing the rerouting and arrival to LHR is more than 2 (or is it 3 hours?) hours later than your original scheduled arrival into LCY then BA should pay.

    Unfortunately BA is not obliged to get you to LCY as LHR, LGW and LCY are described as London airports. The fact you live closer to LCY than LHR is just how the cookie crumbles. BA will however pay your tube / Lizzie Line fare to LCY.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Ok thanks.

    It seems blatantly wrong that LHR and LCY are treated as the same destination. They are 90 minutes apart – as far apart perhaps as London and Birmingham. But as we all know not everything in life is fair.

    I’m not going to fret unnecessarily.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    It’s 2 hours.

    Article 5 paragraph c iii

    have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless

    (Iii) they are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival.

    JDB 4,515 posts

    It’s 2 hours.

    Article 5 paragraph c iii

    have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless

    (Iii) they are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival.

    That’s the -1hr/+2hr window I referred to above, but this relates to the scheduled departure, not actual arrival so, as the OP was rerouted within 40 minutes, it doesn’t apply. New rights attach to the rerouted flight that would cover any delay on that new flight.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Sorry you have lost me.

    It says ‘… AND to reach their final destination less than 2 hours after the scheduled time of arrival.’

    My final destination is LCY. Unless the argument runs that my final destination is London, so LHR (and per above) LGW count (why not then Luton, Stansted, even Southend…).

    My original scheduled arrival time is 14.25.

    My new arrival time is 15.05.

    That leaves 1 hr 20 minutes to get from LHR to LCY. That’s not possible. Not just the tube time, but the getting through LHR time (it being a far larger airport than LCY).

    So unless LHR = LCY for these purposes surely compensation is due.

    BA Flyer IHG Stayer 2,169 posts

    BA flight status page is showing that the 11.55 is cancelled due to adverse weather conditions but that the 13.30 is just cancelled with no further info (as does the ex LCY flight that forms the 13.30 return)

    There is a disruption thread on flyer talk BA board that will more than likely give the actual reason so it’s worth hanging fire on any claim for a couple of days to allow that page to get updated.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Ok thanks. I’ll search up that page.

    JDB 4,515 posts

    @SwissJim – apologies for any confusion – I was trying to distinguish between scheduled times that apply for the purposes of cancellation compensation vs actual times that apply for delay.

    In respect of the two airports, that’s the danger of citing just one part of the regulation. Article 8(3) refers to the issue of multi-airport cities.

    3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.

    CEDR and courts have extrapolated from this that any airport is therefore equivalent to your “final destination” although there is an ECJ case WZ v Austrian Airlines AG C826/19 which goes much further on the “final destination” issue but leaves the application to local courts where you may not receive a very positive response as the decision is so theoretical and BA may anyway have an ‘extraordinary circumstances’ defence owing to the weather affecting previous rotations of your aircraft.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    Were you originally supposed to be on the BA7026? If so looking at flightaware the plane allocated to your flight which was supposed to operate the outbound from LCY, the BA7027, was reallocated to fly to Palma de Mallorca instead. It flew down from GLA last night to LCY. That suggests an operational decision was made to cancel the flight to and from Berlin.

    Have you accepted the rerouting offered to you? You’re out of luck with a claim anyway since the rerouting gets you to LHR 40 minutes later then originally scheduled. Unless of course the new flight is itself delayed.

    And yes LTN STN and Southend are also classed as London airports. I didn’t mention them because BA doesn’t fly to them (except maybe Southend).

    The positive way to look at this is that BA has offered a rerouting that gets you to London within 40 minutes of your original flight albeit not the exact airport and not in CE. Frustrating though that may be I think it’s a reasonable outcome.

    As @JDB advised above work out whether 30% of the Avios or a simple refund of the difference between Club and Economy gives you more Avios and claim whichever is the higher figure.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    As for getting from LHR to LCY by public transport google suggests several options ranging in time from 1hr17 to 1hr40 so not actually impossible to get you to LCY 2hours later than originally scheduled although I accept that LHR is by far the more complicated airport to navigate. And not what you booked.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    And as for missing out on the lounge may I suggest that you just buy something I’m the airport to eat both on the ground and in the plane in ET. I’m pretty sure BA would reimburse you those costs. Just don’t be ridiculous with what you buy.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Ok thanks again everyone – really helpful.

    (I’m not sure what ‘accepting’ a re-routing means btw. Clearly you have to check-in to every flight. Simply by doing that you can’t presumably have been deemed to accept…). If so what to do?

    Bervios 35 posts

    LCY ops were a mess yesterday – a BER-LCY flight diverted to BHX yesterday and the BER nightstopper was cancelled. I imagine crews were out of place so your flight also didnt operate.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    I would have preferred BHX to LHR ! Could have seen my dad. And presumably got compensation to boot…

    AJA 1,083 posts

    It seems someone asked over on FT about the BA2707 which would have become the BA2708 which you were originally scheduled to fly on.

    According to sigwx who I believe is a pilot at BA and able to dig out the reasons for cancellation and had this to say:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobnob2
    Any ideas why BA7027 was cancelled today? LCY to BER

    the plane looks like its doing LCY to PMI now instead

    Thanks
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MeltingAlf
    Could you check for BA4451 (LCY-RTM) for today as well? Seems like it got hit with the same tranche of GVA/BER/ZRH cancellations this morn.

    “Ok, you are both caught up in the WX diversions from last night and this both flights are listed as OPEN or Operational Reasons – no to EU/UK261.

    For BA4451 – your allocated aircraft(G-LCYO) was in BHX last night having diverted. It started its day today late to position to LCY due crew rest. As this is a knock on from yesterday the all reasonable measures argument still applies, but it is a legitimate initial use of the code.

    For BA7027 – Your aircraft was G-LCYR and it started its day at the correct base, but was pinched to operate the PMI service. This is far easier to challenge as it was a purely commercial reason to pinch the BER aircraft for PMI, crew and aircraft were at base.

    For both cases there is a note to the effect of a lack of crew. A lack of crew and the fact BACF keep loosing pilots hand over fist is very much a BACF owned problem, especially for departures ex main base. For both the ‘all reasonable measures’ aspect still applies. Initial claims will be rejected. For the BA4451 it would be a harder situation to gauge a positive outcome as your aircraft was indeed out of position along with its crew. For BA7027, a far easier case to take forward to CEDR, you had both a serviceable aircraft and a lack of pilots and crew on standby at home base is a resourcing problem, pure and simple.”

    So in summary BA will initially deny compensation but if you persist and take your case to CEDR you are likely to have some success.

    What I’m not sure about is I think you are still out of luck because you accepted a reroute that gets you into LHR 40 mins later than the original into LCY.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Thanks.

    I still don’t get the ‘don’t accept’ point. How could I not have accepted it? I have to check in. Cancel it and re-book? Is that what you really have to do? Re-booking cost (if not Avios) likely to be huge if booking at few hours notice onto already overcrowded flights. In fact the one I was on was completely full so most likely I wouldn’t have got on it.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    My cancelled flight was BA7026 – not BA7028. But it was the second BER-LCY flight of the day (and the second one cancelled). I’m assuming BA7026 is the one they pinched the plane to fly to PMI.?

    JDB 4,515 posts

    Thanks.

    I still don’t get the ‘don’t accept’ point. How could I not have accepted it? I have to check in. Cancel it and re-book? Is that what you really have to do? Re-booking cost (if not Avios) likely to be huge if booking at few hours notice onto already overcrowded flights. In fact the one I was on was completely full so most likely I wouldn’t have got on it.

    When your flight is cancelled, BA will often protectively rebook you onto another flight (as seemed to happen here) but you aren’t obliged to accept that, you can ask to be rebooked on another flight, although you wouldn’t be eligible for compensation if you rejected a flight within 2 hours and ejected a later one. You ‘accept’ by agreeing to the change or it seems in your case by checking in.

    Swiss Jim 49 posts

    Sorry, I still don’t understand – and I don’t consider myself to be stupid.

    I have to get in a flight. Assuming I’m not going to walk or get the bus/train.

    If I refuse the change and cancel I’m at the mercy of (lack of) availability and extortionate fares.

    I have to check-in to get on the offered flight. Or any flight.

    How do I reject a flight change, still travel, and still get compensation?

    Apologies if I am indeed dumb.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    If you get a reschedule offered to you in MMB and just check in for that revised flight you are deemed to have accepted th3 change.

    If the revised flight doesn’t suit you then sometimes you can choose another flight using MMB. By choosing another flight you are deemed to have accepted that flight of your choice.

    If that option isn’t available ie you can’t choose another flight in MMB then you need to call BA and explain that the proposed flight offered to you doesn’t suit and then see what BA offers you.

    You can also check on either BA’s website or on Google Flights for other flights operating the same route you want to fly that are still for sale. If there is another flight in the same class eg CE or ET as your original flight still on sale BA will often move you to that flight if you suggest it to them.

    You can also sometimes get BA to put you on a competitor airline but usually BA will prefer to put you on their own metal or other OW metal eg Finnair or Iberia. This last option is really only using the all reasonable measures element of the regulations. Ie if there is a flight that gets you to your destination the same day and BA only offers you a flight the following day on their metal. You should get their agreement before going off and doing your own thing though.

    AJA 1,083 posts

    I assume you flew back to LHR on the flight BA suggested? Or are you still in Berlin?

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