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Last summer I booked a pair of tickets for the CDG to HNL intern rate on BA. It was approx £1k pp in J. Flights in March 2022.
Things have changed and we can’t fly any more. There’s been a raft of cancellations/rebookings on the booking over the past few months.
Original routing was CDG-LHR-LAX-HNL-LAX-LHR-CDG.
Current routing is CDG-LHR-LAX-HNL-SEA-LHR-CDG.
Earlier today I got an email notifying me that the SEA-LHR flight is cancelled.
My understanding is that I can now ask for a full refund (rather than an FTV) because there’s been a cancellation on the booking.
In an ideal world, I’d like to “protect” the CDG-HNL-CDG booking in J, but punt it forward into 2023/2024. Is there a mechanism where this may be possible? Or will I have to make do with a refund? There’s no point is taking an FTV and I rarely travel on cash tickets anyway.
No way to protect that long. For cancellations like this, you’re allowed to move -3 or +14 days (unless you have a nice agent willing to push it more), but regardless you have to choose the new dates.
Btw, sorry to hear you can’t make it. We’re flying the fare next month. What a deal that was!
Incorrect Jacob. You are quoting BA’s current rule. All BA’s current rules, old rules, new rules, ststememts, preferences, idiosyncracies, inadequacies, unfunctional systems… in fact anything BA says, is superseded by any relevant statute. In this case, by statutes EU261 and its UK equivalent.
Statute EU261 states no such time limits. Nor are such time limits reasonable. Remember BA cancelled your flight. Which is why EU261 and its UK equivalent are supreme in this. Statute, legally, overrides contract. BA’s stuff is contract.
Every passenger has their own limitations and purposes in doing a trip particularly longhaul. It’s quite possible that you might wish to attend or see something that only occurs at a particular time of year, for instance. Some people have onlyna certain amount of holidaynfrom work available and it might have to be at a certain time. Some arrangements involve others that take time to reschedule etc. Some lucky people travel a lot and simply don’t have a big enough gap to (re)schedule a trip quickly etc. Most people need time to replan.
Just be reasonable. I would say for the sorts of reasons above doing it next year instead is reasonable ie reasonably close to same time next year at the latest. 2024 does not look reasonable to me, from now, although who knowd what the futuee holds. Statute lets you choose a later date for your entire travel that is convenient to you. Literally, google EU261 and its UK equivalent that’s literally what it says.
If I was the OP I’d do nothing for now but work out a new date in 12 months or not too much more in 2023. Then ask BA for it. You don’t have to choose a new date before your original date of travel passes. If BA hasn’t cancelled the outward leg, it might make things easier later if you call and say you won’t be on the outward flight as due to their cancellation of later flight you are having to replan and you will get back to them.
Remember you get only one shot to choose new dates for your whole booking you have to do it all in one go to benefit from these rights. Unless yoi get all you want don’t touch the booking. And on no account accrpt any form of refund, not even partial, if you want to be sure to keep your right to choose.
As to how to go about using these rights procedurally, I’dbstrongly recommend the OP to read the threads under the Flight Changes and Cancellations topic heading here on the HeadforPoints Forum.
Let us know how it goes.
… in fact anything BA says, is superseded by any relevant statute. In this case, by statutes EU261 and its UK equivalent.
…It’s all true and straightforward in theory. Much harder in practice though… Especially with the fare – when I spoke to BA about some changes and the agent saw the price I paid he couldn’t believe it. The fare was very quickly pulled for Hawaii and Alaska flights. With OP wishing to do 2023/2024 (which I read as end of 2023 and beginning 2024) is a stretch, considering some of the flights are on AA which don’t even have schedules that far in advance, only mid January 2023 released at this point. All good and useful info Lady London! 👍
I was in the same situation as OP exactly a year ago. LHR-MAD-BOG return in J for £500. Had to give up – too much time spent on phone. Seeing a few examples where people had to go through CEDR and some were actually lucky but took 6 months – no thanks. To me, there’s also a degree of ethics. Dragging them through arbitration/court/whatever for an intern fare just doesn’t feel right to me and is not worth my time – I’d rather wait for another intern 😂…
Let us know OP if you decide to pursue the options above, and best of luck if you do!
That’s fine Jacob, but you can’t go giving out incorrect advice to people then. Some people might choose to go a different route then you…
That’s fine Jacob, but you can’t go giving out incorrect advice to people then. Some people might choose to go a different route then you…
Sure, I don’t think it was incorrect, just based on this exact case and mainly the timeline (end of 2023, beginning 2024) there isn’t a simple mechanism. Technically there is as the coupon can be set to open, but unlikely with BA in this situation 🤷♂️
As we all know, BA and quite a few other big name airlines do abuse the rights they know perfectly well they owe to passengers. EU261 works well and has been well tested with some excellent very clear case law. It’s very helpful to passengers to have it on their side. As otherwise massive passenger abuses would continue.
However unfortunately there is nothing punitive in the legislation that would make airlines subject to increased costs or penalties for breaches. If there was, airlines like British Airways and Swiss wouldn’t be able to effectively get away with heading off most claims simply by forcing people to drag them through
court (or in some places, an arbitration or reconciliation process) to end up with nothing more than the basic rights BA was supposed to provide immediately and without fuss. And TAP wouldn’t have had their bank accounts seized in Germany for non-payment of court judgments.There is no time penalty to airlines dragging it out. There is no penalty for denial in an open and shut case where the airline knew perfectly well there was a fair and legally mandated reroute, but the airline made the passenger undertake a legal process just to get the same right they already had. And meanwhile – for as long as the airline can ignore, obstruct and deny – the airline keeps the passenger’s money.
We are extremely lucky in the UK that the MCOL process is simple. These days you submit your request online.
The judgment is mostly given online as well or sometimes with a telephone hearing. The relatively small MCOL fee is returned to you when you win. Which you generally will, since the legislation is so clear.Alternatively, for those with very very expensive flights to reroute and more willing to take the small risk of a perverse decision, and preferribg to avoid the small % fee on a very large fare, or whose case is just as much about reasonableness as the law, fee-free is also available via an arbitration scheme. In BA’s case, the one they have signed up to is CEDR.
So Yes Jacob passenger @nn can definitely keep the routing and choose a replacement future date convenient to passenger. That’s precisely what the legislation says and is there to do. With the rider that in the UK, it’s important that use of the provisions of legislation must be reasonable – so I would say with reasonable reasons rerouting to dates in around a year should be fine.
I agree with all the above, but it’s important to know when to fight the fight. I wonder if MCOL is applicable for non-UK point of sales, as this was a France-based sale. Any gotchas in that or not?
And I never said it wasn’t possible for a resonable extension. My response was to the 2023/2024 which is way too far. If it was 2022/2023 that’s much more likely. But OP’s ask for 2023/2024 is like paying for a petrol today but wanting it to be provided 2 years later.
Jacob, stop digging.
Your initial answer was incorrect.
@nn did NOT say “*late* 2023”. He said 2023/2024. So a date in 2023 or 2024.I qualified that with “date under the legislation is open” but “be reasonable”. And suggested 2023 in around 1 year or close, might be reasonable.
Regarding this possibly being a France sale, what do you think the “EU” in “EU261” means? It’s a statute governing Europe. And that includes…France.
As to paying for petrol today, @nn’s purchase was already made at the time he bought his ticket. With all rights, including EU261, pertaining as they were at that time.
Stop digging. meta and I have given the correct advice.
@nn did NOT say “*late* 2023”. He said 2023/2024. So a date in 2023 or 2024.That’s your interpretation. Knowing the Hawaii peak season (December to April) I automatically assumed that’s what was meant and that was my interpretation. I apologise if that was wrong.
Regarding this possibly being a France sale, what do you think the “EU” in “EU261” means? It’s a statute governing Europe. And that includes…France.
No need to talk to me like that. I asked specifically about the UK’s MCOL mechanism, whether that mechanism can be used for claims even in this situation when it’s not sold/issued by UK entity. It was a genuine question.
I’ll shut up now and leave. OP has enough information to go with anyway.
Can anyone explain what the difference is between b and c in 261 ligislation? They seem to describe the same thing to me.. That a flight must be offered at any date convenient to the passenger.
b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the
earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a
later date at the passenger’s convenience, subject to availability of seats.You get to choose either to travel as close as reasonably possible to the timing of the flight you had booked that was cancelled. Or, you can choose completely differently and decide you want to do same travel on a later date that is convenient to yourself, instead. These options are at no cost to yourself.
You also have the choice of a refund if you want. But often you would be disadvantaging yourself if you choose this option.
It’s your choice and not the airline’s. Some airlines EU261/UK261 applies to, get very confused about this.
In case @Pdah1980 is asking why they split it into 2 clauses given that saying “any later date at the passenger’s convenience” would incorporate the next available flight as well as all later flights…
…it’s because of the “subject to availability of seats” in (c). It could be worded more clearly, but what it’s pointing at is that if you take (b) the airline has to reroute you however they can: a totally different airline… a higher travel fare… etc. Whereas if you take (c) it’s only if the airline has seats on their flights available in your cabin [or fare class; debatable] on the future date you choose. You can’t demand a flight in 3 months’ time on a different airline, but you can demand the next flight out on a different airline.
Either way, the passenger chooses if he still needs to reach his destination as close as possible to when he booked, or if he wants to choose a completely different later date.
He chooses when, but provided the requirements of
EU261 /UK261 are met, then airline gets to choose which other flight or airline. This is the same whether needing same travel timing or choosing a date much later. Passenger can always suggest, of course.So if BA wants you to wait 3 days for their own next flight out of Mauritius, as they did to a poster of HfP, passenger is perfectly entitled to request passage home on the Emirates flight which is leaving 1 hour after the passenger’s cancelled flight. And he will get reimbursed for whatever the Emirates flight costs him if BA still refuses to come up with another reasonably close alternative (if there is one). Even if BA illegally refuses or says they or their systems “can’t” do it, passenger will be reimbursed at CEDR or MCOL if necessary. Plus possibly 8% statutory interest, and any other costs.
PS a seat available has been judged in cases, to mean any seat available in same cabin as passenger booked (eg if there is still any seat in that cabin available for sale the passenger has a right to it)and not to mean booking class, in judgments. Which is perfectly reasonable.
We are also in dispute with BA. Expected the pushback at our request for rebooking to Xmas 22 from Xmas 21 for our BKK BA flights, told to submit a complaint and have done so and now sent a letter before action. Didn’t expect 5k avios compo each and an unagreed refund of fees, avios and 241. Have responded with rejection of the refund, tho obs cant make them take them back!
Total blatant disregard for the law of the land really angers me TBH. Obs in no great hurry so will CEDR after 8 weeks if they don’t have the courtesy to respond.
Any further suggestions welcomeThanks Lady London. My understanding is that ‘b’ could apply to any other airline too if that flies earlier but ‘c’ would need to be a seat on the same airline. And in terms of timing, I think ‘b’ would apply if there are seats on another airline prior to the original airline’s next flight. I think b is designed for situations where there is a cancellation within 24 hours for example, not for a cancellation 6 months out.
BA have cancelled my singapore flight in July. Qantas are flying same route at same time. I’m wondering if ‘b’ can apply in this scenario.
We are also in dispute with BA. Expected the pushback at our request for rebooking to Xmas 22 from Xmas 21 for our BKK BA flights, told to submit a complaint and have done so and now sent a letter before action. Didn’t expect 5k avios compo each and an unagreed refund of fees, avios and 241. Have responded with rejection of the refund, tho obs cant make them take them back!
Total blatant disregard for the law of the land really angers me TBH. Obs in no great hurry so will CEDR after 8 weeks if they don’t have the courtesy to respond.
Any further suggestions welcomeI would reject everything. Perhaps BA is trying to avoid your MCOLing them.
If you MCOL them then you’d make your claim an entirely cash one. Either by presenting the cost of a ticket with similar conditions for same travel, optionally at your choice on BA or any other airline.
Whether it’s an airline BA might be able to provide a ticket on at less cost if they were willing to voluntarily obey the law, or another airline. Either for a reservation you’ve made, having paid all or just a deposit, or 3-5 quotations from various airlines to prove market cost.If ever you find yourself having paid avios and claiming at MCOL, a value that has been accepted per avios is 1.6p in your money claim as that is BA’s standard selling price. Eg if BA had downgraded you on your honeymoon trip to Mauritius you’d probably not want any more avios because you’d be so annoyed. So you’d MCOL claim the 75% of the fare you paid in avios, per seat, at 1.6p per avios due back. Plus 75% of the huge cash co-pay you had to pay alongside the avios. In that sort of case I’d watch out for BA trying to bully you by refunding avios when that’s not your claim and would stoutly reject as you have done.
I’d carry on going for the full cost of a ticket on an airline BA hates and probably can’t ticket. To let them know you mean business and cold hard cash and not some low interline amount will be disappearing out of their bank account when you win. So your quotes would be on, say, Thai, Emirates, Etihad, ANA? ?Delta?. This should be motivational to them to settle. Of course it was your own being upset with BA that meant you didn’t bother with them and since they refused, have put you in the position of having to find a ticket on another airline. And the airlines whose fares you have presented to prove market price are just a random selection 🙂 . If course if BA relents and settles for transporting you after all you will have to accept.
If you paid on UK credit card just apply to your card for replacement ticket cost under Section 75, this gets you the higher cost of a replacement ticket paid by your card as they are jointly liable. And save yourself the trouble of CEDR and MCOL. Your cardco’s lawyers are bigger than you and rest assured your cardco will subsequently make their own recovery from BA for your ticket on Emirates.
Thanks Lady London. My understanding is that ‘b’ could apply to any other airline too if that flies earlier but ‘c’ would need to be a seat on the same airline. And in terms of timing, I think ‘b’ would apply if there are seats on another airline prior to the original airline’s next flight. I think b is designed for situations where there is a cancellation within 24 hours for example, not for a cancellation 6 months out.
BA have cancelled my singapore flight in July. Qantas are flying same route at same time. I’m wondering if ‘b’ can apply in this scenario.
No such restriction on c. A reminder you don’t get to choose the replacement airline at either time. You can suggest. You can however refuse an option if it doesn’t meet the conditions eg as reasonably close to original timing as possible, if there are other options that are significantly closer regardless of which airline is the one(s) that can do the reasonably close. But provided they do agree to reroute you the airline can choose amongst the closest reasonable options. If they refusebto reroute you either b or c case, you get to choose.
Is first class July 15th flight is cancelled 6 months out and there are no seats available in the whole of July on ba metal then can clause b be invoked to book a flight with qantas at same time as original? Or is the earliest opportunity clause for last minute cancellations? Or would I have to fly now as technically this is earliest opportunity! I have a feeling the earliest opp clause was only put into 261 to deal with cancellations at short notice.
Timing of cancellation doesn’t matter. You always have the option to re-route on another date, but if BA has cancelled the route for months on end or forever, they have to put you on another airline.
@Jacob in regards to mechanism, actually there is a mechanism by IATA. BA just has to use it as some other airlines do and submit what is called INVOL code in the system. I had a flight cancelled by Singapore Airlines in 2020 and I am still holding an open ticket with them. This is not a voucher, but rather an open ticket. If there are F seats available on the flight I want, they’ll rebook me. They said I can keep it as long as I want.
@Jacob in regards to mechanism, actually there is a mechanism by IATA. BA just has to use it as some other airlines do and submit what is called INVOL code in the system. I had a flight cancelled by Singapore Airlines in 2020 and I am still holding an open ticket with them. This is not a voucher, but rather an open ticket. If there are F seats available on the flight I want, they’ll rebook me. They said I can keep it as long as I want.Yep, that’s exactly what I meant that it’s technically possible. I have an open ticket with Saudia like this too. But never seen a BA to do/allow.
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