Flight time changed – Virgin won’t move me

[BlueHorizonUK]

Hiya,

Virgin retimed the Miami flights so they now leave in both directions more than 3 hours later than planned. My travel is in December so I clicked on some options on the website and it put me onto a live chat with someone who said as there is no reward availability they won’t move me.

Is this correct? It seems terribly unfair that they changed it by a significant amount of time and expect me to just accept it and not help me by allowing me to move to an earlier flight.

Any advice?

Thank you

[AL]

I’d need to read the terms, but I suspect that a three hour change which doesn’t involve a numbering change (i.e. you’re still on VS5/VS6 but at different times) is probably only considered a minor change (I think anything 12 hours or less is minor, since they only operate a long-haul network).

From memory, the usual CAA stance on this is that you’re only covered according to the conditions of carriage, and not any particular law, unless the flight number changed, in which case it’s ordinarily considered a cancellation. At that point, UK261 applies, but since you’re at least fourteen days away, don’t be expecting loads of benefit there.

What earlier flight were you looking to get on? I think they only operate once daily to MIA, don’t they? They might be selling AF/KL/DL services, but they probably won’t throw you on those unless they have to. And, the CoC probably don’t afford you much/any protection.

[AL]

Yes – Section 21 of the Conditions of Carriage at https://help.virginatlantic.com/content/dam/conditions-of-carriage/Revision%2051%20(7%20Aug%202023).pdf cover this in detail. If you have a connection or cruise (and proof!), then you’re afforded some benefit, but if you’re flight only, then you might be out of luck here.

Of course, you can probably pay to change… that might be worth doing, cost dependent. Or try your travel insurance/AmEx for travel inconvenience protection, but that will probably just pay for a pint and some crisps in the terminal.

[BlueHorizonUK]

thank you both, it was a reward booking and there is no reward availability.

For the Christmas period they are flying twice a day.

[ChrisBCN]

For something like this, I would phone up 3 or 4 times and see if you can get an agent to take pity on you. Before you ask to change flights, it’s helpful to say why the timing doesn’t work (maybe you have a hire car and an X hour drive which you couldn’t get to the destination before nightfall on the new times…)

[Mouse]

I thought a delay of over 3 hours counted as a cancellation under EU261. Does that only apply to compensation rather than re-routing?

[JDB]

Mouse wrote:

I thought a delay of over 3 hours counted as a cancellation under EU261. Does that only apply to compensation rather than re-routing?

It is a little grey. The CJEU, in a bunch of post Brexit judgments, decided (in two separate judgments) that a schedule change of more than one hour earlier or more than three hours later could constitute an offer of rerouting, implying a cancellation but it’s not generally how airlines deal with it.

BA is overall more generous and will rebook (not requiring Avios space) with a schedule change of more than 2 hours either way (or less if cruise related or same day return travel or connection issues), Virgin says it will allow changes at over three hours for specified reasons as above and others including QR will tell you to bog off.

For what it’s worth, what is being referred to here are not “delays” but schedule changes. A “delay” relates to a flight you actually travel on.

[Mouse]

Thank-you @JDB, what a mess!

[BlueHorizonUK]

Thank you everyone.

The exec office called me (after I made a complaint to them) and offered to put me through to the pre-departure team and I said what is the point of that as they said that there needed to be points availability and there wasn’t so were not able to move me. She said yes that’s correct and went on and on about how the airline can change times whenever it likes.

Basically she told me to do one and suck it up.

Very very disappointing attitude.

[Lady London]

I’m still not seeing why, when meeting the timing of a flight they’ve bought is draconian as an obligation imposed on the passenger, the airline gets to make serious changes to that time unilaterally and we’re told the passenger has no recourse under statute.

This is unfair and legal limits should be imposed so that passengers are put in a more equal (though stillnot equal) position.

[Lady London]

BlueHorizonUK wrote:

Thank you everyone.

The exec office called me (after I made a complaint to them) and offered to put me through to the pre-departure team and I said what is the point of that as they said that there needed to be points availability and there wasn’t so were not able to move me. She said yes that’s correct and went on and on about how the airline can change times whenever it likes.

Basically she told me to do one and suck it up.

Very very disappointing attitude.

@BlueHorizonUK I am wondering if you might have ruined your own chances there.

It sounds as though the conversation got quite heated and they decided not to bother. When the Exec Office, Chairman’s PA, person delegated after you’ve complained at the highest level etc., offers to put me through to the team that has refused me, I know them receiving my call via that route has a high chance they’ll be incentivised to be accommodating.

Of course I wasn’t there so I don’t know but that would have been something I could often reasonably hope for.

[AL]

I think the missing element here is context – we don’t know why VS moved the time of that flight. But, the conditions of carriage (21.1a) do note that the timing doesn’t form part of the contract. I get that it’s disappointing when a change like this occurs, but it might be out of their control.

[JDB]

Lady London wrote:

I’m still not seeing why, when meeting the timing of a flight they’ve bought is draconian as an obligation imposed on the passenger, the airline gets to make serious changes to that time unilaterally and we’re told the passenger has no recourse under statute.

This is unfair and legal limits should be imposed so that passengers are put in a more equal (though stillnot equal) position.

I’m not sure that law exists anywhere. Outside Europe and, to an extent, Israel there is nothing like 261. We should also be grateful that BA has policies on schedule changes that are significantly more generous than necessary.

[mrcrsearle]

If these flights dont work for you, can you cancel for free & rebook with another airline?

Happened to me when flying to Vegas. Changed by 4 hours. I just sucked it, even though we lost half a day.

[jimboandthejetset]

Virgin and Delta have just shuffled all their flight times for next summer – I had notifications yesterday for trips in April and August. In April I’ve just had my return flight brought forward by five hours because the Delta connection onto the transatlantic leg was now too short so they put me on the flight before. I know I might not be allowed to move, but I’m considering my options including a re-route and was just wondering whether there is any time limit on how quickly I have to request a change. (Given Delta’s love of shuffling things around, I’m aware it may also resolve itself if I wait until January…)

[JDB]

jimboandthejetset wrote:

Virgin and Delta have just shuffled all their flight times for next summer – I had notifications yesterday for trips in April and August. In April I’ve just had my return flight brought forward by five hours because the Delta connection onto the transatlantic leg was now too short so they put me on the flight before. I know I might not be allowed to move, but I’m considering my options including a re-route and was just wondering whether there is any time limit on how quickly I have to request a change. (Given Delta’s love of shuffling things around, I’m aware it may also resolve itself if I wait until January…)

There is no official time limit, but particularly when it involves a different airline, the proposed alternative may drop away. You do only get one chance to change, so you need to be sure you are happy with it, but there’s little merit in holding off for too long unless you have a particular reason to think that Delta’s changes you seem to expect will work in your favour.

[Blindman67]

Would I be right in thinking that next summers flights (August 2024 ) could be subject to another shuffling say in March as the Summer timetable is not “fixed in stone” untnil around then?

My Daughter is flying from Miami on VS and her flights have been mover to an 03:00 take off (IIRC) which is not verey kind to a family of 2 kids!

[jimboandthejetset]

Thank you @JDB that is very helpful.
(My expectation of Delta is based on prior experience. Cranky Flier has written more on this too, in an article called “Why Do Airlines Make So Many Annoying Schedule Changes?”)

[jimboandthejetset]

Blindman67 wrote:

Would I be right in thinking that next summers flights (August 2024 ) could be subject to another shuffling say in March as the Summer timetable is not “fixed in stone” untnil around then?

I don’t think March is a particular point where they shuffle things – but I would expect the transatlantic flights to be settled by then. I have just had a March (i.e. winter timetable) flight move, but only by a couple of minutes.

I’m slightly surprised Virgin are scheduling anything for a 0300 departure. I have just looked in August and they have an 1845 departure and then one at 2230 (or 2355 on Thursdays). Unless it’s a connection from MIA on to somewhere with a VS codeshare?

[Blindman67]

jimboandthejetset wrote:

Blindman67 wrote:

I’m slightly surprised Virgin are scheduling anything for a 0300 departure. I have just looked in August and they have an 1845 departure and then one at 2230 (or 2355 on Thursdays). Unless it’s a connection from MIA on to somewhere with a VS codeshare?

Thanks for the reply.

Dad got it wrong (LOL)

Cx was from 21:35 to 23:55

I’ve told her to not do anything until nearer the time, but I doubt if she has any choice of flights TBHO after reading this thread.

They are reward flights and they are a party of 5 (kids 9 and 5)

She will have to see what optione there are for late check outs (!) or lounge options at Miami (all flying UC)

[jimboandthejetset]

Blindman67 wrote:

Cx was from 21:35 to 23:55
I’ve told her to not do anything until nearer the time, but I doubt if she has any choice of flights TBHO after reading this thread.
They are reward flights and they are a party of 5 (kids 9 and 5)
She will have to see what optione there are for late check outs (!) or lounge options at Miami (all flying UC)

Yeah, it’s less than three hours so not much they can do. I’d suggest big dinner in the airport, board as early as you can, get the kids all snuggled before pushback and then recline as soon as allowed (and if it’s a seat where you need the attendants’ help to flip the mattress, ask them on boarding if they can prioritize doing that with you asap after departure). Hopefully the holiday adrenaline will carry them through to midnight and then they’ll pass out and get a good 7 hours kip. If the kids can be taught to sleep with eyemasks before the holiday then that will help… Bon voyage!

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

Not sure which lounge VS uses in MIA – it’ll be on the website – but it won’t be a lounge to get there super early for.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

BA Flyer IHG Stayer wrote:

Not sure which lounge VS uses in MIA – it’ll be on the website – but it won’t be a lounge to get there super early for.

I agree with the above comment re eye masks. Best to get them used to wearing them so they find what’s comfortable for them in advance of the flight.

[jimboandthejetset]

Just a coda to this thread

JDB wrote:

There is no official time limit, but particularly when it involves a different airline, the proposed alternative may drop away. You do only get one chance to change, so you need to be sure you are happy with it, but there’s little merit in holding off for too long unless you have a particular reason to think that Delta’s changes you seem to expect will work in your favour.

Just a little PS to this thread from late last year – this is for a booking JAC-SLC-LHR. The MCT in SLC now fails because of the time changes, so to avoid a lengthy wait in SLC I asked to be changed to JAC-SLC-JFK-LHR, originating on the same flight ex JAC that I was originally booked on. I contacted VS today. The first agent told me that she could see the original flight but that it wasn’t “available to be sold in” and wouldn’t let her confirm the booking. I then wanted to check whether the rest of the route could be used if that problem was fixed, but the second agent wouldn’t even start to look, saying that I couldn’t be switched from a one-stop to a two-stop itinerary. *sigh*