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@BJ, that’s not how fraud works though, a perpetrator would need to obtain something fraudulently rather than simply trying to wriggle out of paying you what they owe you under legislation or contractual obligations. They’re not trying to unlawfully hold onto anything you’ve already paid them, if that makes sense.
As soon as within the 24hr window I’d call the airline, ask if downgraded, and ask nicely for a day later if they are willing to say this is likely.
Technically though if it’s a downgrade you strictly speaking can’t refuse to fly in the lower class. You’d have to be refused completely any seat on the flight or entire flight cancelled to have compo+rerouting rights.
I’d have the same misgivings as you on a 241 seeing that loading. Hopefully there is room for you Friday if needed.
Please post how it turns out.
I never realised that. As someone who would prefer not to fly than not have a bed on long haul, there must also be many who feel the same or even have medical conditions that the airline wouldn’t even be aware of, that require the comfort of a bed for long haul.
This is why I advised recently if you have any disbility declare it and mention consequent needs as soon as you book have them put it on the PNR. Eg must sit with assisting companion, ease of aisle access, flat bed, cannot walk or stand limitations.
They may disregard but some legislation requires that disabilities are taken into account and it just might help so inform them.
They are not allowed to insist on knowing the specific nature of the disability either but tell them what you can
…And Good Luck with getting the CAA to enforce that, @BJ 🙂
Greetings from Mong Kok
Just a quick update; flight from MAN delayed by over an hour due to bald tyres, arrived at LHR late then stopped at transfer barriers to be directed to have a word with customer services. They informed us, as suspected, we’d been downgraded to WT+, but would review at gate. Explored other rerouting options with lounge, who in fairness were accommodating, but as we are only in HK a few days, before onward travel, and there were no same day options or early following day (all at capacity) then we hit a dead end. Don’t worry, was the mantra, the gate should bump you back up when all the horse trading is done. Got to the gate and waited………………………………………………………, only to be presented with a fait accompli. Pre printed downgrade letter, informing us to contact BA for “fare difference”. Managed to get 16J/K in WT+, and to ensure we didn’t cut short our HK part of the trip we made the under pressure decision to board, but ensured it was noted as involuntary.
Pushed back late at 6pm, then sat on the pan for 1 hour, then back on stand for another hour due to technical issue. Eventually arrived in HKG after being on board in WT+ for over 15 hours. Interesting point to note are that the lounge staff did say when we were discussing rerouting that BA would accommodate us overnight.
We tend to travel to Asia for leisure once each year, usually on decent J fares from one of the ME airlines, it has always been great service, stress free, good solid product and a part of the holiday.This year is the first year I decided to use a BA 241 for this trip. Quite frankly it has been a sh*t show, lesson learnt, BA Premium Plus card in the shredder when home, as whats the point for me? Many Asia routes cut, and then at capacity + in those remaining. Equally I’d also rather not fly with the Arthur Daley of the aviation industry who can sell my seat and put an extra couple of monkeys in their pocket! I ordered a Ford Granada automatic and received a Ford Fiesta (Ghia).
The Cordis hotel though in Mong Kok, on first impressions, seems to be good. The excellent (over) service at the lounge has helped us unwind from the battering taken from BA. Thanks to all for your advice and comments, Off to bed!@QRA – I’m glad you got there in the end, albeit not in style you quite reasonably expected. It’s going to happen more because flights are running with very high load factors and BA’s algorithm for overbooking hasn’t yet adapted to the greater preponderance of premium leisure travellers who don’t cancel at the last minute as business travellers do. I hope the rest of your trip goes much more smoothly.
When you claim, if you are up for it, go hard or you will need to go through a lot of pain to get properly recompensed as BA almost certainly won’t pay up properly without a fight as their letter indicates. I’m sorry that I’m cheating a bit by copying and pasting from someone who had the same issue yesterday for his parents.
If I were in your position I would make the claim online in the normal, setting out your calculations for the 75% of Avios and fees per person and noting that Article 10 requires payment within seven days and BA should have actioned the claim automatically at the time of the downgrade.
After seven days of no response, write a hard copy (+ email) Letter before Claim to BA Legal setting out the details, say there is no scope to dispute the facts of the downgrade, ask for payment of x Avios and £x within 14 days failing which you will issue a claim at MCOL based of the 1.76p purchase cost of Avios, plus the cash, plus court fees and interest at the county court rate starting seven days from the original claim – set each part out and the total cost. I would note also that you will send a copy of your downgrade letter to the chairmen of the CAA and CMA as it fails to comply with the requirements of Article 14 in that you are owed a significantly greater sum than the “difference” but most passengers won’t realise this so will be disadvantaged with BA not paying them n accordance with its statutory obligations.
This will focus their minds and it will most likely be sorted out before Christmas. If you aren’t up for a fight, then make the claim, chase, likely refusal or more probably short changing and then go to CEDR. BA may be able to bamboozle them and it will take many months.
Good luck and come back with any questions.
“Pre printed downgrade letter, informing us to contact BA for “fare difference””
I’d keep this hard copy letter as it is evidence of BA deliberately misinforming you about the rights you have, ie deliberately going against the requirement of UK Passenger Rights legislation as derived from EC261/2004 which has a clearly stated requirement on the airline to inform you of your rights.
The rights the written evidence from them in the form of that letter, that they deliberately failed to inform you of your rights to a downgrade reimbursement of everything you paid for the leg to Hong Kong except for govt taxes and airport charges.
Brtish Airways had already decided your fate to be downgraded by the time you worked it out. They then proceeded to fob you off in MAN, and to fob you off again in LHR about “reviewing at the gate”. That’s code for you’ve been downgraded and the only hope of that not sticking is if we get 2 no-shows in J.
So keep your boarding passes and make a claim for the full 75% downgrade reimbursement.
And as they lied and lied to you and I detest WT or even WT+ LHR to Hong Kong as much as you, personally I’d send that letter to the CAA with an official complaint that BA is flouting the law and deliberately not informing you of your rights to the considersbly more costly dowmgrade reimbursement that the law says they have to inform you of. BA would have been better off to have given you nothing instead of that letter thst proves their guilt.
@LL you are at great risk of being mistaken for Suella Braverman! Inflammatory rhetoric doesn’t get you compensation/reimbursement. Best just to stick to calm, practical, tailored solutions.
*correction *75%* reimbursement
That’s a real insult JDB 🙂 . I can’t stand the person you mention.
But why is it inflammatory to raise an official complaint on a very rare occasion when you as a passenger have got BA bang to rights as exceptionally, this time they themselves have literally handed the passenger the evidence of their guilt
*correction *75%* reimbursement
That’s a real insult JDB 🙂 . I can’t stand the person you mention.
But why is it inflammatory to raise an official complaint on a very rare occasion when you as a passenger have got BA bang to rights as exceptionally, this time they themselves have literally handed the passenger the evidence of their guilt
I apologise. I said it because I think it’s quite wrong to keep accusing people of lying; that essentially involves intent. It’s very unfair on the BA staff who the OP encountered who were simply doing their jobs. The comment was also bolded which is the keyboard equivalent of shouting. In my view, neither is at all helpful.
Many people get downgraded on lots of airlines every day and I am very sympathetic as I would be livid. However, as far as I’m concerned shouting about and making various accusations is like dogs barking at cars – pointless.
I think offering practical steps someone can take to be properly compensated in a timely way for their downgrade/delay/cancellation is the most helpful thing anyone can offer. If you also wish to offer sympathy, fine but all the rest is noise and if someone pays attention to it, their claim may be compromised.
I also advised the passenger to say they will write to the CAA but also the CMA, the agency that is given statutory teeth. That should not be done by way of a complaint.
Of course it’s not inflammatory to make official complaints to bodies like the CAA and claims to CEDR /MCOL etc but it is when you use words like “lied” and “guilty” and other variations of same.
As the complainant you need to be the voice of reason and make BA (or whoever you are complaining about) the bad guys.
Use phrases like “I wasn’t provided with clear and accurate information as to my rights to reimbursement as per the regulations – please see copy of letter which states fare difference rather than 75% reimbursement”
They fobbed him off JDB. Instituionally BA lied on that and on not fulfiiling the legal requirement on them to inform the passenger of his rights.
The bold text was accidental – I looked on the Edit but nothing to see how it happened and had tried to remove it but couldn’t change it back. Caps would be shouting though – bold isn’t.
Your advice to the passenger was wonderful and I have no doubt it will be wonderful in its effectiveness too. That doesn’t preclude separately making a complaint to the regulator that BA is deliberately not informing passengers of their rights. Especially as time and time over we know that BA are flouting the law on this very issue and this time the passenger literally has the evidence of this in their hand.
Of course it’s not inflammatory to make official complaints to bodies like the CAA and claims to CEDR /MCOL etc but it is when you use words like “lied” and “guilty” and other variations of same.
As the complainant you need to be the voice of reason and make BA (or whoever you are complaining about) the bad guys.
Use phrases like “I wasn’t provided with clear and accurate information as to my rights to reimbursement as per the regulations – please see copy of letter which states fare difference rather than 75% reimbursement”
Exactly that sort of wording BAFIS. Of course one carefully words one’s complaint but this evidence is too good not to use.
Greetings from Mong Kok
Just a quick update; flight from MAN delayed by over an hour due to bald tyres, arrived at LHR late then stopped at transfer barriers to be directed to have a word with customer services. They informed us, as suspected, we’d been downgraded to WT+, but would review at gate. Explored other rerouting options with lounge, who in fairness were accommodating, but as we are only in HK a few days, before onward travel, and there were no same day options or early following day (all at capacity) then we hit a dead end. Don’t worry, was the mantra, the gate should bump you back up when all the horse trading is done. Got to the gate and waited………………………………………………………, only to be presented with a fait accompli. Pre printed downgrade letter, informing us to contact BA for “fare difference”. Managed to get 16J/K in WT+, and to ensure we didn’t cut short our HK part of the trip we made the under pressure decision to board, but ensured it was noted as involuntary.
Pushed back late at 6pm, then sat on the pan for 1 hour, then back on stand for another hour due to technical issue. Eventually arrived in HKG after being on board in WT+ for over 15 hours. Interesting point to note are that the lounge staff did say when we were discussing rerouting that BA would accommodate us overnight.
We tend to travel to Asia for leisure once each year, usually on decent J fares from one of the ME airlines, it has always been great service, stress free, good solid product and a part of the holiday.This year is the first year I decided to use a BA 241 for this trip. Quite frankly it has been a sh*t show, lesson learnt, BA Premium Plus card in the shredder when home, as whats the point for me? Many Asia routes cut, and then at capacity + in those remaining. Equally I’d also rather not fly with the Arthur Daley of the aviation industry who can sell my seat and put an extra couple of monkeys in their pocket! I ordered a Ford Granada automatic and received a Ford Fiesta (Ghia).
The Cordis hotel though in Mong Kok, on first impressions, seems to be good. The excellent (over) service at the lounge has helped us unwind from the battering taken from BA. Thanks to all for your advice and comments, Off to bed!
@QRA Glad you made it, albeit not in comparable conditions to those you had booked.If you’ve not already done so I’d suggest you make a few notes of key facts (or actually just bookmark this thread) and take photos of relevant docs – the letter, boarding passes and anything else and maybe some screen grabs of flight status on BA app showing departures/ arrival times just in case that turns out to be of relevance. Then, might I suggest you file it all away, enjoy your trip and hopefully the anger and frustration will ebb away quickly.
You can then pursue BA with a clear head when you get back. Just set out the facts as clearly as possible, present what you believe you are entitled to, making clear you understand EU261 and aren’t going to be fobbed off. Maybe say how disappointed you were but otherwise leave the emotion out of it. You want to make it as easy as possible for BA to agree with you – this will speed up the process to provide redress.
“Pre printed downgrade letter, informing us to contact BA for “fare difference””
I’d keep this hard copy letter as it is evidence of BA deliberately misinforming you about the rights you have, ie deliberately going against the requirement of UK Passenger Rights legislation as derived from EC261/2004 which has a clearly stated requirement on the airline to inform you of your rights.The rights the written evidence from them in the form of that letter, that they deliberately failed to inform you of your rights to a downgrade reimbursement of everything you paid for the leg to Hong Kong except for govt taxes and airport charges.
Brtish Airways had already decided your fate to be downgraded by the time you worked it out. They then proceeded to fob you off in MAN, and to fob you off again in LHR about “reviewing at the gate”. That’s code for you’ve been downgraded and the only hope of that not sticking is if we get 2 no-shows in J.
So keep your boarding passes and make a claim for the full 75% downgrade reimbursement.
And as they lied and lied to you and I detest WT or even WT+ LHR to Hong Kong as much as you, personally I’d send that letter to the CAA with an official complaint that BA is flouting the law and deliberately not informing you of your rights to the considersbly more costly dowmgrade reimbursement that the law says they have to inform you of. BA would have been better off to have given you nothing instead of that letter thst proves their guilt.
@Lady London – not siding with BA but “fare difference” is sufficiently ambiguous, and these things can often get sorted at the gate. Someone else no-shows or 2 passengers don’t make the connection and it’s all fine in the end.Also I would ALWAYS keep emotive language out of such dealings. Accusing people or organisations of lying or being guilty won’t get you anywhere. At the end of the day there is a person processing a claim or complaint, they will care little what you think of their employer, they just want to clear their caseload and get on with their day so why not make it easy for them to agree with you? There’s an old Scottish saying – “you’ll catch more flies with sugar than sh*te” – you may wish to reflect on that.
@Stu-N of course one makes one’s complaint using professional language.
When seeing it I thought about any ambiguity that could be claimed by BA in “fare difference” and came to the conclusion that there is not. “Fare difference” is quite specific. There is absolutely no way it could be deemed to be advice by BA to the passenger that in fact the passenger is due 75% of their fare reimbursed back to them.
BA would have to say “fare difference or other amounts due”, say, in order to give any hint that the passenger has rights to any more than just fare difference.
And you’ll see the repeated cases reported here on HfP *for years now*, that on downgrade BA offers the passenger only the difference in avios between the 2 fare classes and in case after case tries to pay no more than that.
So Nope, BA have hung themselves with this letter and it should be submitted to the CAA as it is rare proof of a practice BA operates consistently in contravention of passengers’ rights.
Accusing people or organisations of lying or being guilty won’t get you anywhere.
This is true, but on the other hand (when one is certain of one’s ground) it is extremely satisfying, and salutary for the liar.
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to visit a certain car dealership again…but that’s no loss….and I’m fairly certain a young person learned that day NOT to make up lies when unsure of their facts.
Annoys the hell out of me.
As an aside, does anyone think paying for seats in advance reduces the risk of a downgrade or is it ultimately all down to status?
is it ultimately all down to status?
Yes. It’s actually based on a customer score, which is based on status in the vast majority of cases, with an extra qualifier within each status.
Those who are on a 241 often think they are downgraded for that reason, but it’s based on the customer score – nobody has ever provided proof of it being anything else.
I have an impression that BA’s reputation at generally avoiding involuntary downgrades is better than many other airlines, but @JDB is probably right in recognising that current post Covid, post Brexit, post pax Americana world conditions pose a new normal that is stress testing BA’s usual algorithm with ever revealing consequences.
One of which may be that companion voucher travellers are increasingly fair game for downgrades in certain circumstances.
Very shabby treatment, no doubt, which we can only hope will be diligently avoided rather than apathetically accepted by the decision makers at BA revenue management.
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