Virgin Atlantic launches afternoon tea – on the ground and onboard

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• Daniel Macdonald says:

  19 Apr19 April 04:18

  You are most welcome. Dan ????

• Dwadda says:

  19 Apr19 April 05:05

  BA seats kinda look like the Jet2 seats. Whereas the headline width /pitch of the latter is the same as traditional seats (29in pitch, 17.25 in width (space between inner surface of arm rests) the seat pan (what you sit on) is considerably shorter. I measured the following..

  Jet2: 42cm
  Ryanair: 46cm

  From the base of the seat back to the front edge of the seat pad. You definitely notice the shorter seat pad. It was OK for a 2 hour flight, but starts to be uncomfortable for longer than 3 hour flights.

  Also the Jet2 seat pad is 2cm narrower but you don’t notice that unless you spill under the arm rests..

  Would be interested to know the seat pad depth of the new BA seats. This seems to be the new measure of economy seat meanness!

  • Dwadda says:

    19 Apr19 April 05:14

    PS: please bring back higher fares and less dense seating. Fares are ridiculously low. Taking out 2 of 33 rows would increase prices by 6%. No one would notice that. but we all suffer the confinement of dense seating..

    • Steve says:

      19 Apr19 April 07:53

      +1

      • Matt says:

        19 Apr19 April 10:01

        A couple months ago I paid £72 for a BA return to Amsterdam which considering I’m silver i.e. lounge access surely meant BA lost money. As it happened a friend was at Heathrow and he guested me and my partner into CCR so we had breakfast, lunch and few glasses of LPGS! He also had champagne sent down to us in economy on the flight. I would more than happily have paid quite a bit more than £72! However our views must be the minority because BA aren’t stupid and would surely charge more if they could.

    • Bagoly says:

      19 Apr19 April 08:35

      More generally: Stop competing with Easyjet and Ryanair who will always do a more profitable job of what they are offering. Charge somewhat more, and provide a different service. Otherwise there is no point for most people to fly BA short haul.
      It used to be said that more than all the profit for BA came from premium cabins across the Atlantic. Is that still true?
      Of so, KPIs targeting load factor in Economy are a distraction from increasing profits.

      • sunguy says:

        19 Apr19 April 09:59

        *IF* the purchase of Norwegian actually happens … Im *HOPING* that this is what we may see a return to…

        *HOPE* is all I have got to cling to that they bring the BA brand back to what it should be as a major flag carrier and all the penny pinching rubbish is banished to a wholy owned low-cost carrier like GO once was…..

        Yes; we all know GO was an aboration; but at least BA was a real, propper full service airline at that point!

    • Rob says:

      19 Apr19 April 08:44

      Less than that, because the extra seats are sold at the lowest price on the plane and you need to strip out taxes etc. BA gets around £5. Strip out 12 seats and BA loses £60 per flight – less if the flight is not full anyway (no loss if the flight is undersold by 12). That’s it.

      • Andrew says:

        19 Apr19 April 09:28

        I know you’ve said the same thing many times Rob but BA aren’t stupid, especially when it comes to watching the pennies in the accounting department. They must have made these changes for a reason.

        Long term these changes could be potentially bad as premium-seeking passengers are put off BA. Potentially it could be good. I know I’m more likely to book CE as a result.

      • Mark says:

        19 Apr19 April 10:03

        Presumably that depends on demand for particular flights though. Otherwise why not just use A319s (or smaller) on every flight and price the seats accordingly.

        The proof of the pudding here of course is in the passenger experience. The one and only time we’ve flown Virgin Atlantic was to Dubai in economy. I found the seats painfully uncomfortable after 2 hours, despite paying for extra legroom seats on the return. An issue I’ve never experienced before or since, and that’s having done economy to Australia a couple of times. Regardless of whether that was unique to the type of seat or aircraft it’s put us off flying Virgin economy ever since.

      • john says:

        19 Apr19 April 10:10

        That’s probably a good way to look at it. But if you look at a route say LHR-FCO where BA run 5 flights a day, that’s 60 extra seats. 60 seats is only 12 seats away from being half an A319 (72 seats), so by adding 60 seats to existing planes they’ve almost saved half a plane on a route…

      • Marcw says:

        19 Apr19 April 10:18

        C´mon Rob… these extra seats will bring a lot of extra income in high season: summer, Christmas, Easter, halft term… when 2 hr flights are being sold for £200. In low season it doesn’t matter, you can fly as cheap as peanuts. So if a normal planes does 5-6 flights a day… it sums up.

        • Rob says:

          19 Apr19 April 10:29

          True – but you are inconveniencing everyone else, every day. This is what people don’t think through.

          Let’s do some quick maths. Assume a plane seating 100 where the seating is densified to 120.

          Imagine a distribution of sales like this post densification:
          Flights where under 100 seats are sold – 70%
          Flights where 100+ seats are sold – 30%

          On the 70% of flights with under 100 seats sold, BA has generated NO extra revenue but annoyed EVERY passenger who now has less leg-room and a rubbish thin seat. Where is the benefit in that?

          On the 30% of flights with over 100 seats sold, BA generates revenue from up to 20 extra people who get to fly BUT at the lowest marginal seat cost. However it has STILL annoyed the other 100 who have less leg room and comfort than before.

          It doesn’t, overall, make much sense. It may work from an accounting viewpoint, admittedly.

      • Andrew says:

        19 Apr19 April 11:16

        Except on the undersold flight there’s now an increased chance that you’ll have an empty seat next you, especially if you have status. Most people would rather have an empty middle seat than a couple inches more leg room

      • callum says:

        19 Apr19 April 11:19

        Rob, you keep claiming that all the extra seats are always sold at the lowest price. Do you have any evidence for that at all, or even a logical thought process?

        How do you know that the seats aren’t being sold at the highest price on the 30% of full flights?

        • Rob says:

          19 Apr19 April 11:29

          Did you do economics at school? You have a demand curve and a supply curve.

          The demand curve does not move when supply is increased. (This is not strictly true, as a new direct airline route can create demand where it did not exist, but generally holds.) To fill the seats you therefore need to move along the demand curve by reducing the price.

          Assume these are the willingess of people to fly to Barcelona at 2pm on a Tuesday:
          10 people will pay £200 each way
          40 people will pay £100 each way
          50 people will pay £50 each way
          50 people will pay £30 each way

          These numbers do not move if you increase the number of seats for sale. Indeed, by cheapening the flying experience you are probably reducing the numbers at the top. Anyway, a 100 seat aircraft would generate £2000 + £4000 + £2500. Adding 50 seats only gets you another £1500 because you are selling to the bottom of the demand curve.

      • Mark says:

        19 Apr19 April 11:33

        On the basis that you start with some idea of the number of seats you can sell at the highest price points on flexible terms and/or close to departure… anything beyond that is what goes into the lowest price buckets.

        In practice I’m sure its as much art as science.

      • Andrew says:

        19 Apr19 April 11:41

        I don’t disagree with your example Rob (and I didn’t study economics at school) but how about this scenario? A few weeks from departure all seats on a flight are sold but there’s still strong demand so the airline swaps the plane for a larger one. In this case all of the extra seats will be sold at the most expensive price. Fundamentally isn’t that the same as just starting out with the larger plane in the first place but only making the extra seats available in the highest fare bracket? (provided it’s a busy time and you’re confident you will sell out)

        • Rob says:

          19 Apr19 April 13:45

          BA can do this anyway – that’s why they run Boeing 767 aircraft (twin aisle) on some short haul routes at peak times.

      • john says:

        19 Apr19 April 12:05

        @Mark the A319 fleet is moving out of LHR also so that wouldn’t work in some cases. I believe some are being retired as they are old and some others are moving to LGW.

        (I know I also talked about A319 in my post 🙂

      • Mark says:

        19 Apr19 April 12:14

        @john Yes I’m aware that BA are gradually phasing out the A319s at Heathrow. That’s kind of the point. BA clearly has a business case for more seats, albeit in part to offset the upcoming retirement of the shorthaul 767s. Its just a question really as to how uncomfortable the new seats are and the impact that does or doesn’t have on peoples willingness to vote with their feet.

  • john says:

    19 Apr19 April 10:13

    I think they are the same as Vueling possibly, and they weren’t that uncomfortable for a couple of hours to BCN the other day. The most annoying bit was they had no net at the knee area. Not sure if these BA ones have that removed also.

    • Lumma says:

      20 Apr20 April 01:00

      Flew to Rome on Vueling. The flight on the newer seats was ok, the return had their older seats on the way back I was crippled when getting off. And I’m not one of these snobs who can only fly premium cabins, so these new seats could be an improvement.

• Paul says:

  19 Apr19 April 06:27

  Whilst you can claim the public interest defence I wonder what defence BA can claim for both the cruel and unusual punishment those seats will provide and their flagrant breach of trade description legislation every time they use words premium carrier!

  • Andrew says:

    19 Apr19 April 08:40

    Surely they are only uncomfortable seats if you have a sub-prime booty?

    Get yourself to the gym, firm up those glutes and you’ll be fine.

    • Rob says:

      19 Apr19 April 08:47

      Isn’t that more painful? If you have flabby excess it would absorb the hard seat …

      • Zild says:

        19 Apr19 April 12:43

        I do pity those passengers with disabilities for whom this will push the economy seat beyond the point of being bearable or practical.

        I am somewhat surprised airlines can get away with such cutbacks when they effectively make their basic service inaccessible to customers with disabilities – doesn’t that constitute discrimination?

      • Zild says:

        19 Apr19 April 12:45

        Sorry, that may be construed as insensitive to post my above comment in response to comments about fat arses! Please understand that my intention was to expand upon the subject of “comfort”.

• JamesB says:

  19 Apr19 April 06:33

  Took one look at the pic of those seats and my heart sank. I used to fly jetstreams regularly and even on those the seats were better than these appear to be. When I look at them I wonder if they will be robust enough to do the job
  It would not surprise me if maintenance and replacement of these outstrips the revenue gained from the additional row of seating they facilitate. Fortunately I now rarely fly BA shorthaul, I much prefer the train from Edinburgh to London.

  • Rich says:

    19 Apr19 April 06:44

    I agree, they look cheap, flimsy and painful! Anecdotally and off topic – I’m flying shorthaul economy tomorrow and keep getting my seat moved back, so those upgrade promos / tactics seem to be paying dividends.

  • Andy S says:

    19 Apr19 April 07:00

    You might not prefere the train when the new Azumas arrive as there is a significant number of complaints about the seats on the new Great Western Trains.

    • JPV says:

      19 Apr19 April 07:36

      Do you have any further reading on this? I haven’t heard about it and it’s an area of interest for me

    • JamesB says:

      19 Apr19 April 07:39

      What’s wrong with them?

      • Ian Perry says:

        19 Apr19 April 07:55

        Much like those BA ones; very little padding and so become uncomfortable after a while. Speaking from experience on regular 2.5 hour trips to Paddington. It gets worse with GWR, as they don’t have enough drivers trained yet, so often swap in old turbo trains (ex. Thames Trains) and those are truly awful!

• AndyR says:

  19 Apr19 April 06:55

  OT how long do Amex referral points take to post these days on the Plat please? Was sure it was usually same day but have been waiting a few now.

  • KevMc says:

    19 Apr19 April 07:01

    I’ve made 4 referrals this year, and each time it has taken around 3 days.

    • JamesB says:

      19 Apr19 April 07:44

      About the same timescale for me, the points usually hit my account the same day as the referee receives the card.

  • Tom Cook says:

    19 Apr19 April 07:10

    Often within a couple of days but at times have been up to 5 days for me.

    • Liz says:

      19 Apr19 April 07:35

      I had to wait over 2 weeks for approval and pts to post recently. Had to phone up and ask for a decision in the end.

  • Steve says:

    19 Apr19 April 07:55

    For me usually same day after the person has activated their new card (sometimes within minutes)

  • MattyS says:

    19 Apr19 April 08:21

    Two referrals to Amex gold this year have posted next day, but been waiting since Saturday for a referral to a BA Blue card. Don’t know if there is a different time for different cards.

    • Rob says:

      19 Apr19 April 08:35

      They have slowed, I just put some onto a new card for my wife and they are only trickling in.

  • AndyR says:

    19 Apr19 April 19:54

    Thanks everyone. Typical, just after posting on here they turned up in my account. Same day the card arrived in the post.

• KevMc says:

  19 Apr19 April 07:00

  O/T I mentioned in bits yesterday that I was having problems making an Iberia booking T-361. I’m glad to say that at midnight, I was able to finally click through to the payment page and confirm my booking.

  Not sure if this was an IT glitch or how it always works Iberia, but in this instance (MAD – EZE), it seems that the flight was released at T-361, but want bookable until T-360.

  Thanks to HfP for the tips on using this bargain route:

  14th April next year seems to have been considered an off peak redemption by Iberia, so a one-way Business class redemption has cost us just 51k Avios and £85 each…that is compared to 105k and £375 that BA would be charging for a one-way from LHR (I am assuming it will be a peak fare on the BA chart, as it is the school holidays).

  • Doug says:

    19 Apr19 April 17:05

    Good luck in Argentina, hopefully you will be flying to better places than Buenos Aires, it was a good destination late 2000s, but since them they are really struggling financially.
    You may score good steaks tho…

• Andy S says:

  19 Apr19 April 07:01

  Reminds me of a Thameslink Class 700!

  • John says:

    19 Apr19 April 07:43

    I like the Thameslink Class 700 seats (and I would like the rest of the train too if not for the fact that it is less reliable than previous units).

    And I’ll just come right out and say it: with a height of 6 feet, sure, if there was more space I wouldn’t complain, but I am not bothered by the BA short-haul densified seats and I will continue to fly them when it makes sense to (which is almost always on RFS).

  • Nick_c says:

    19 Apr19 April 09:55

    I’ve just turned down a job offer, and a significant factor was I would have been spending three and a half hours a day on Thameslink. Not only are the seats uncomfortable but there is no space to use a laptop, and I have yet to take a Class 700 that has WiFi.

    • Lumma says:

      19 Apr19 April 13:25

      No plug sockets in standard class on the new trains either, was once delayed coming back to Gatwick which caused me to miss the last tube from Blackfriars.

      Ended up having to get on a night bus as I couldn’t request an Uber either due to my phone being dead as I’d been relying on being able to charge it on the train

• John H says:

  19 Apr19 April 07:12

  All you need is oars through the windows and CSD beating a large drum and the FA’s with whips and were back to Jason and the Argonauts.
  John

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