American Express suspends its relationship with Curve Card, just 36 hours after launch

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• Mark2 says:

  31 Jan31 January 09:15

  That sounds like a death wish to me. Hope it does not mean that the whole thing will die. Amex was a ‘nice to have’; this dispute may crash the whole thing.

• Mr Dee says:

  31 Jan31 January 09:17

  Looks like got thrown a Curve ball from Amex there..

  • Shoestring says:

    31 Jan31 January 09:27

    @ Mr Dee: quite the opposite: Amex said they were unhappy with the beta and on that basis wanted more thought to be given to the wider launch. Amex had legitimate concerns about damage to their brand.

    Curve ignored this and launched, regardless.

    Regardless of the guff about 180 days etc, Curve will have fallen foul of basic regulations concerning credit cards being used to pay off other credit card balances (and therefore also potentially the wrong side of basic anti-money-laundering good practice).

    So Amex will be well within their rights to terminate the agreement with no notice.

    All eminently avoidable by Curve if they had engaged a few brain cells before pressing the green button for the wider launch.

    • Grant says:

      31 Jan31 January 09:41

      This is the key point that the statement from Curve conveniently leaves out

    • Neil says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:23

      I have to say my reading of that statement is a little different. If Amex have signed a merchant service agreement with Curve in March 2018, haven’t they breached it by terminateing without notice? Amex also had planety of opportunity to raise issues with teh beta before January 21st

    • Shoestring says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:33

      you can terminate most contracts/ agreements without notice if there is breach of terms etc

    • Andrew (@andrewseftel) says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:36

      I haven’t seen the agreement that Curve signed, but the standard Amex merchant agreement contains the clause:

      If any of your representations or warranties in this Agreement becomes untrue, inaccurate, or incomplete at any time, we may terminate this Agreement immediately with or without notice to you.

    • Neil says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:36

      Of course, but aren’t Amex in breach of the terms of the MSA signed in March?

    • EwanG says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:41

      Pure arrogance that Curve decided to press ahead with the launch on the 28th. I expect Curve’s legal counsel would have identified immediate termination of contract as a risk, yet the product was re-launched, badged as an ‘open beta!’

    • Neil says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:48

      The statement talks about legal advice Curve have taken:

      “With that move, and based on legal advice we received, Amex breached their contract with Curve, failed to give appropriate notice, breached PSR regulations, and demonstrated clear anti-competitive and anti-innovation behaviour. ”

      The statement also says why Curve perceive they are allowed to push ahead with the 28th Jan launch

      “Curve received written approval to launch Amex support in Curve the moment Amex signed the Merchant Service Agreement.”

• Ouaile says:

  31 Jan31 January 09:21

  +1….Let’s hit 1000 comment !

  • Mr Dee says:

    31 Jan31 January 09:24

    On topic comments 🙂

• Neil says:

  31 Jan31 January 09:23

  Looks like this is going to be a very messy legal battle but I’m glad Curve are willing to step up to the challenge. Let’s see if Amex will release a public statement…..I love a good stand off

  • Mr Dee says:

    31 Jan31 January 09:26

    If I was them I would move on, their product is not the same as PayPal adding Amex only benefits Curve rather than Amex IMO

    • Mr Dee says:

      31 Jan31 January 09:26

      Not saying that I wouldn’t have liked Amex support especially as there are some key areas I could have benefited over using the Amex direct.

    • Neil says:

      31 Jan31 January 09:32

      How does it not benefit Amex? You are paying Amex’s fee by signing up to a monthly fee with Curve.

      • John says:

        31 Jan31 January 09:39

        Only if Curve pays Amex higher fees than they would have otherwise received.

        Just like BA doesn’t give away empty seats for free, Amex might prefer to receive higher fees from fewer merchants than a lower fee from more merchants.

      • Mr Dee says:

        31 Jan31 January 09:39

        What is the benefit for Amex apart from potential extra spend?

      • Andrew says:

        31 Jan31 January 09:45

        Due to capped interchange fees amex probably lose money on any spend on cards such as the BA blue. Crazy though it may seem they don’t want spending to increase on them. I suspect the only reason they’re still advertised is that amex committed to a certain advertising spend in their iniital contract with BA.

      • marcw says:

        31 Jan31 January 10:01

        Well, all that 3% extra on international fees. It would also be a devaluation, since merchants wouldn’t have a motivation to take AMEX anymore, as Curve would be the solution to everything.

      • Craig says:

        31 Jan31 January 10:23

        Marcw is right. Especially smaller merchants, they would stop accepting Amex directly if they knew people would just pay with Curve. Fast forward a number of years and a significant* portion of Amex spend is being done via Curve, then curve darken the Amex door and say we are now a key part of your business and we want a reduction in the “merchant fees” charged to top up curve amex wallet. Amex then have no choice but negotiate fees or lose a portion of their revenue.

        Curve is brilliant but it is a long term disrupter to the Amex business model. Just like if black cabs could have done something to stop uber, they would have. Amex being cynical here i think, at least that is my view of it

        *make your own mind up about what is significant. I’d suggest even 5% of Amex spend going via curve would be material enough for curve to push hard on fees.

      • Mr Dee says:

        31 Jan31 January 10:32

        Agree with above, I think one key reason that a direct comparison can’t be made with Paypal is that PayPal as far as I know charge a fair whack to for amex transactions.

        Another thing is anyone paying the £15 fee with unlimited amex transactions is easily going to start racking up costs for Curve spending a few thousand a month, I don’t know the fees but I am sure Curve would have ended up losing out with big spenders hence why they have these limits in place now IMO

• Qwerty Bertie says:

  31 Jan31 January 10:10

  My opinion is that Curve has always been a gimmick.

  I tried it once, and then cancelled in the second month because I couldn’t use it properly due to the low limits. They say that they need time to build up trust, but I furiously object to that. I have spent over twenty years gradually building a flawless credit history with never a late or missed payment with any company or institution. There is the proof of my trustworthiness, plain for them to see with the credit reference agencies.

  If banks and Amex are prepared to give me cards that would each allow me to spend tens of thousands in a very short space of time, and which if then paid off prior to the dud date allow me to spend again straight away, why should I have to wait three or four weeks to be able to spend beyond £5k? The real killer was the £10k annual limit though. When I came up against that I thought to myself I’d reached a Catch 22. They were saying allow more time to demonstrate spending behaviour, but I had no more time/available spend for about 10 months…

  • Mr Dee says:

    31 Jan31 January 10:34

    Agree, they will temporarily lift your limits so you can vary your spend but this is not natural spend of course and it becomes a game of pleasing Curves algorithms which is of course just wrong. If you want natural spend you must remove the limits entirely otherwise people will just keep the card for HMRC spend

    • Ian M says:

      31 Jan31 January 13:47

      Very true. I keep the card purely for HMRC spend due to the fact that Curve’s limits are so low.

      They can keep my £150 I’ve paid for Curve Metal if they’ll give me the £1.4m limit they’ve advertised. Something tells me that limit is pie in the sky!

• N says:

  31 Jan31 January 10:11

  Curve asking customers to spam amex on social media is a bit childish

  • Symon says:

    31 Jan31 January 10:16

    And HfP is still promoting and standing by this company? Guess that 3% income from Curve matters more than Rob would have us think…

    • N says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:18

      I wouldn’t say Rob is sat there promoting this right now (yes, he did in the past – and yes, he may do so in the future). This is a pretty big news story in the world of points and points collecting, it’d be mad for HfP NOT to cover this.

      Just a ‘shame’ Rob is living it up in a Emirates First Suite while all this happens!

      • TheSkintTraveller says:

        31 Jan31 January 10:47

        I wouldn’t pass up the opportunity to try Emirates F suite to just reply to comments on here! 😆

        • Rob says:

          31 Jan31 January 10:55

          As it happens, Emirates has unlimited free wi-fi which is pretty quick on a 777-300ER 🙂

    • Alex aka illuminatus says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:34

      I do not see Rob really ‘promoting’ this company currently. With that said, while this debacle is really disappointing, it is not that the company had gone bust or been found guilty of some fraud etc – we can only guess what happens next, but even as of now Curve is a valuable option for many clients (the metal tier is rather worthless, yes, and I am sure will be refunded if they don’t find a way forward with Amex).

    • Alex aka illuminatus says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:37

      +1, Rob is not really ‘promoting’ this company currently. With that said, while this debacle is really disappointing, it is not that the company had gone bust or been found guilty of some fraud etc, so why not? We can only guess what happens next, but even as of now Curve is a valuable option for many clients (the metal tier is rather worthless, yes, and I am sure will be refunded if they don’t find a way forward with Amex).

  • JPR says:

    31 Jan31 January 10:30

    Indeed and it could prompt an unwelcome response from Amex.

    If Curve brings proceedings, it will be months if not longer until a final hearing. I imagine Amex would apply for security for costs and so Curve would need to pay money into court. If Curve seeks an interim injunction, they would need to enter into an undertaking to pay Amex’s damages if a final hearing went against them: given their financial state that would likely need to be paid into court. Curve, as of its latest filed statements, only had £3 million in cash left: that would barely cover the litigation and it must be burning through cash in its operations.Regulatory investigation and findings are going to take at least as long.

    No quite sure how this approach assists Curve: it seems to use legal and regulatory phrases without understanding the practicalities (even if their interpretations are right, which may well not be the case).

• Columbo says:

  31 Jan31 January 10:33

  They’re running (run?) out of money, aren’t they…

  This started back in November, when they gave away loads of the premium black cards (then selling for a one-off fee of £50) for free. In a desperate attempt to increase their user base.

  Now they seem to have broken their agreement with Amex in an attempt to sell as many fee paying cards as possible and have taken the Curve Reward card offline. I hope the FCA and ASA are looking into Curve.

  • Mr Dee says:

    31 Jan31 January 10:36

    Lets not forget the free £5 credit to both new users and the person referred which seems to be blocked right now.

    So every 10,000 referred users is costing them 100k

    • Domino says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:44

      If it’s blocked, or turned off, it isn’t costing them anything! Seems they have put a block on anything that costs them money. A step taking when a company is in financial trouble. Let’s hope Rob stops shilling for Curve and gives it to us straight.

    • Roost says:

      31 Jan31 January 20:46

      This will certainly be a concern to Rob.

      “Curve will pay you £5 for trying it out if you use my referral code of OQB4J”

      • Rob says:

        31 Jan31 January 21:15

        I think we’ll survive 🙂

        Bigger pain is that the BA and Hilton ads end tonight!

      • Brian W says:

        31 Jan31 January 22:52

        Not the done thing Roost……..Poor show.

  • Alex aka illuminatus says:

    31 Jan31 January 10:43

    Why? The rollout is a mess, they company may not be too well-managed – but why this gloating and hostility? The concept they offer is innovative and can bring value, and believe me it is extremely difficult to create something new AND bring it though all the rigid and often stuck-in-the-past regulations, workflow and frameworks in the market – and you wish that regulators jump on them?

    • Symon says:

      31 Jan31 January 10:55

      I actually their could be a case the ASA getting involved for one reason: Despite American Express withdrawing their support for Curve, Curve is still using American Express images (Gold Card) on their website. That isn’t cricket. But hey that’s just my opinion.

    • Tom says:

      31 Jan31 January 11:30

      Alex, you can give Curve many plaudits but being a rigid follower of regulations is not one of them. They have repeatedly criticised the approach of other start-ups like Revolut for signing up to unnecessary regulation (that includes a banking license in Lithuania where the regulator promises no 1st year compliance enforcement….). In the early days, Curve charged merchants an additional 1% fee claiming all expenses were corporate expenses when it was blatantly untrue. They are not FCA regulated, and on their website expressly point to WDCS (the card provider) as FCA regulated – to put this in perspective, Rob and his (highly successful and useful) 2 man outfit are FCA registered.

      So why the hostility – I think your average financially literate consumer can overlook a firm operating with limited regulation, if they act in a responsible manner to both partners and customers alike. Curve hasn’t done this. They rolled out an expensive service under a “open Beta” tagline heavily utilising the American Express brand (23rd most valuable in the world according to Forbes), when AMEX had already made it clear they were unhappy with the planned roll-out. They then release a statement claiming AMEX has a small share of the market and isn’t widely accepted, asking consumers to point their complaints to AMEX. They also directly present supportive Twitter messages blaming AMEX with no clear author, let alone substance behind the comment. They do this in a blog post where Comments are disabled.

      Acting this way on any given month would be foolish enough, doing it in a month when two Fyre Festival documentaries are being released and Metro (the darling of UK start up banks) is tanking, points to a serious lack of judgement on the part of Sachair and his team.

      I suspect many HFP readers have spent enough time around small, highly funded companies, to grow tired of foolish 30/40-something CEOs, mid power trip, acting with limited integrity.

      • Mondeo Man says:

        31 Jan31 January 13:45

        +1

      • Thywillbedone says:

        31 Jan31 January 13:53

        + 1
        Curve seem to be a company badly in need of good advice. I suspect they weighed the risk of proceeding in the face of AMEX concerns and figured they would have 180 days of selling the product as a worst case scenario (with all that associated revenue) …I’m sure the merchant services agreement has a reputation clause which allowed for immediate termination if deemed harmful to AMEX.

      • Sussex Bantam says:

        31 Jan31 January 15:34

        Very nicely put.

    • Trevor says:

      31 Jan31 January 16:08

      Quite, everyone loves a failure it seems. I thought is a interesting concept and applied for the free card to test it out the night before it went bottom up. I hope it comes back and they and Amex kiss and make up. We need innovation….

  • BlueHorizonUK says:

    31 Jan31 January 11:49

    Why does everyone keep saying this. They are backed by Santander.

    • Grant says:

      31 Jan31 January 11:55

      Santander Ventures are one of the series A funders.

      • Tom says:

        31 Jan31 January 12:18

        One of 7 corporate investors, plus 10 individual investors that we know of. Lots of Banks have these labs/funds, and they are nothing new (Marissa Maya worked for UBS labs long before Google and Yahoo), and they are all isolated from the core business. Santander Ventures are/were a $200m fund, so have invested less than 1% of their resources in Curve. I doubt they, let alone Santander Management would bat an eyelid if Curve went to the wall.

      • Grant says:

        31 Jan31 January 12:49

        Exactly my point. I think Blue Horizon is / was conflating Santander Ventures investment with Santander Bank security for customers money. They are two very different things.

• William Squires says:

  31 Jan31 January 10:51

  I’m sure this has been asked but if you upgrade to metal then downgrade to blue, do you keep the metal card until expiry?

  I fancy one for vanity purposes but £150/year is a bit too much to justify (until my existing insurances expire, anyway).

  • Grant says:

    31 Jan31 January 11:10

    I believe you will be reissued with a blue card and that the metal one will no longer work.

    Don’t forget that metal requires a six month minimum subscription and that there have been a number of issued raised with the ‘value’ of the packaged insurance given the exclusions and conditions.

    • Grant says:

      31 Jan31 January 11:10

      *issues

  • Rob says:

    31 Jan31 January 11:26

    Yes, but if downgrade within 6 months Curve can charge you £50 to cover the cost of the card.

    • Chrisasaurus says:

      31 Jan31 January 12:44

      Doubtful they would do so right now though of course

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