Is it time for Virgin Atlantic to launch a ‘Suite Guarantee’?

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• Tom says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:08

  All seems pretty sensible to me. And yes, I wouldn’t book VS for precisely this reason.

  A lot of the airline industry has this same intellectually dishonest approach though – “our seat / cabin is way better than the competitors which is why you should only book with us” then when the seat is switched for a terrible old one “no, there’s no difference between the hard products, it’s all business class so it’s all equivalent”. The entire full service airline industry is basically about pushing how much you can get away with ripping off business class (and premium economy) passengers in the good times to subsidise the rest of the operations. It’s a pretty terrible business model when you think about it, really.

  • LondonTravels says:

    27 Aug27 August 10:09

    ^^^ this ^^^

    Air France and Emirates have some really poor long haul business offerings, for instance. They should be required to advertise the worst, not the best, you can get, or it should be guaranteed at the time of booking.

    • Blair Waldorf Salad says:

      27 Aug27 August 12:39

      Didn’t AF retire its bad seats and is now ok overall? Or are there still some horrors lurking in the Caribbean fleet?

      • dundj says:

        27 Aug27 August 15:20

        Still a couple in the 777 section of the fleet, but almost fully refurbished.

    • Jonathan says:

      27 Aug27 August 18:28

      No one ever complains about either airline’s first class offering, well maybe EK’s A380 F seat, it’s still far netter than the likes of BA’s

• Jonathan says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:17

  When I flew VS250/1 routes, I didn’t bother with this poor seat, Shai really needs to understand how detrimental this seat is to the airline

  • Greg says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:30

    I’m not sure Jonathan. The few times I’ve flown on Virgin with the terrible seats, upper class was full.

    • Novice says:

      27 Aug27 August 07:51

      I agree. My flight to Barbados was full but I personally would never fly them again. I spent £2640 for a return flying Virgin for the first time. I had a bad experience on the flight due to bad hard product. I hated it. Food was awful as well. Only crew was good.

    • Jonathan says:

      27 Aug27 August 18:31

      When I flew those routes, UC and Premium cabins were noticeably quiet, and Y was very busy

• Budva says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:28

  My very first VS flight was booked in PE but got upgraded at the gate to UC. Two middle seats. I remember how cramped it was and I wondered what all the fuss was about. Got a free neck massage though which tells you how long ago it was. I’d have been happy going back to PE.

• TimM says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:30

  Not taking advantage of HfP’s prominence for a bit of a personal rant then?

  • Alex G says:

    27 Aug27 August 05:35

    How do you “take advantage” of your own blog? HfP is Rob’s site. He is not an employee, and the content is always personal opinion.

  • SamG says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:16

    Qatar did with the Q Suite

  • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:50

    A couple of sentences is hardly a rant.

    There is more written about the suite guarantee proposal than the complaint about the switch.

  • daveinitalia says:

    27 Aug27 August 08:31

    I like these sort of articles. They help to draw attention to shortfalls in a product and the reach of HfP will increase the likelihood of something being done about it.

    My current travel annoyance is that many (but not all) Hilton hotels now have moved their executive lounge happy hours from 18:00-20:00 to 17:00-19:00

    • ianM says:

      27 Aug27 August 08:38

      I think 5-7 is a far better time. If you are going out in an evening you are far more likely to be able to have a quick drink from 5 than 6

  • Rhys says:

    27 Aug27 August 08:45

    It’s not a personal rant when every Virgin article we write gets the same comments!

• Alex G says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:32

  The only thing I would disagree with is “It was a decent product in its day”. It really wasn’t, and I never have and never will fly Virgin UC while they continue to have these awful seats.

  My strategy for flying to the US was always AA if I was paying cash, or BA if I was using Avios. With CS pretty much guaranteed on many routes, I now chose BA over AA for most routes.

  I dont care too much about the lounge, food, or service. I want a comfortable seat and privacy.

  • Rhys says:

    27 Aug27 August 08:48

    How many other lie-flat, all aisle access seats were you flying when it came out in 2003?

    • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

      27 Aug27 August 08:54

      Indeed and the seat was innovative as it had two different sides to it – one for sitting on and when you flipped it over a different surface for sleeping on and both designed for those separate functions,

      • Novelty-Socks says:

        27 Aug27 August 09:01

        I always quite liked this – made for a comfortable sleep in my experience. I fit the seat’s dimensions easily though.

      • Michael says:

        27 Aug27 August 21:53

        Exactly this, and with its mattress topper and duvet is still much more comfortable as a bed than some of the cramped reverse herringbone seats where the seat doesn’t give a true flat surface but has bumps and joins.

        It’s easy to flip the seat yourself but I’ve usually found the crew to be proactively offering to do it when you venture to the loo to freshen up after dinner, or if they see you trying to do it yourself!

        I had a seat which couldn’t be flipped on a night flight recently. The crew offered to wake the non-rev and move me to their (functioning) seat, and when I felt bad so refused to let them do that I received 30k points in compensation.

        • Blair Waldorf Salad says:

          28 Aug28 August 00:18

          What do you mean here by non-rev? An off duty VS staffer travelling for work to re-position?

• David Keen says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:33

  Really? As a very seasoned former A321/330 pilot, now retired, I think you are getting your priorities wrong with somewhat hysterical articles like this. A focus upon the realities of airline operations and safety, once in a while, could clarify why events like yours do happen. I could easily write on this matter, having written and edited for BALPA for 10 years. Your articles are getting stale and lack punch, although churning out 3 per day is a tough call.

  • Doug M says:

    27 Aug27 August 05:50

    Surely he’s just making the point that commercially this may be damaging sales as people don’t like the old seat. The suggestion is to allow a means to not fly that seat if the passenger chooses. As a paying passenger you don’t care about the complexity of operations, that’s the airlines concern.
    As to the articles getting stale, which I agree with to an extent, that’s about familiarity overtime. Many articles are rerun, albeit with updates, such that if you visit the site over several years you get many repeats. I’d imagine reader churn is a fact of life with any site.

  • Ziggy says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:19

    Two thoughts come to mind:

    Firstly, the reasons these seats are still flying and will continue to be around into the next decade has absolutely nothing to do with safety. It’s amazing how often that word is used nowadays to excuse poor airline service.

    Secondly, “somewhat hysterical”? Where’s the hysteria here? There’s definitely annoyance and frustration, but there’s no hysteria. For one who wants a “focus on realities”, shouldn’t you be avoiding ridiculous hyperbole like that?

  • Erico1875 says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:24

    The article isn’t about safety or the technical expertise of the crew. It’s about Virgin advertising their very best product and then swapping for an inferior one on the day.
    Non of their advertising features this crappy seat

    • Rob says:

      27 Aug27 August 06:28

      Not ‘on the day’ – two months in advance in my case!

  • Tom says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:28

    I honestly can’t tell if David’s post is a parody or if BA pilots are really that up themselves. I suspect it’s the latter which is why much of the product is such a hot mess now.

    • Dave says:

      27 Aug27 August 07:41

      BALPA != BA. He could have flown for any British airline (and probably Virgin if he was on the A330)…

    • Occasional Ranter says:

      27 Aug27 August 08:00

      He’s VERY seasoned, dontcha know 😉

    • Craig Vassie says:

      27 Aug27 August 10:17

      I believe that David flew for Thomas Cook. He is a very respected editor for BALPA and the snide comments are both unfair and undeserved. David has a valid point in that HFP doesn’t seem to “do” air safety coverage (which is understandable), but personally I’d rather fly in a poor seat on a safe airline, than a great seat on a not so safe airline. I have a long list of no-go airlines.
      Craig V. C.Eng, MRAes (retd)

      • Rob says:

        27 Aug27 August 10:27

        The idea that you can treat your customers as badly as you like just because you meet the LEGALLY REQUIRED minimum safety regulations of the business you operate in (so all your competitors are at the same level anyway) doesn’t really wash to be honest.

        • Craig Vassie says:

          27 Aug27 August 12:16

          Well there’s the theory of air safety, and then the practice, isn’t there? The minimum legal safety requirements are supposedly always met, but in practice some airlines just “happen” to have far worse safety records than others. The difference is usually down to a mix of inadequate flight crew in-service training, and poor maintenance practices. Many Tier 1 airlines operate well above the legal minimum safety standards, so in my (professional) opinion competitors are NOT always at the same level. As just one example, most Tier 1 airlines include specialised training on windshear recognition and recovery; others don’t bother.

        • Rob says:

          27 Aug27 August 12:24

          But that has naff-all to do with the topic in hand, which is Virgin moving you to another Virgin flight if it swaps your aircraft two months in advance and the ethics of not even telling the passenger.

  • Dan says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:32

    As a seasoned passenger who has written and edited for Twitter for 10 years I can tell you a seat and product is make or break for how often I will fly an airline. The LON-NYC route is so competitive that if the one time I fly I get a crappy seat… I wouldn’t risk flying with them again.

  • MT says:

    27 Aug27 August 06:36

    There is nothing hysterical about this at all. I see nothing in this article that suggests anything about compromising safety, simply a shared frustration and a suggestion that VS is costing itself business with its Old Upper Class, something I and many people would agree with.

    I haven’t flown VS for years and the simple reason is the old UC seat. When the new seat was introduced I thought it would be worth having another look as I used to enjoy flying VS, but the fact you really never know what you will get means I decided not to risk it. I may only be a sample of one, but VS don’t get my business for the exact reason Rob highlights!

    You say articles lack punch, yet this article is taking aim front and centre at a company that has over the years been a friend to HfP, hardly lacking punch!

  • mkcol says:

    27 Aug27 August 07:24

    “Hysterical: affected by or deriving from wildly uncontrolled emotion”

    Have a word with yourself 🙄

  • Occasional Ranter says:

    27 Aug27 August 07:52

    Have a word with yourself. Rob is about the least hysterical flights-on-points reviewer out there. And this is clearly a subject that resonates with hfp’s target audience as well as being backed by personal experience.

    The old hard product is genuinely awful. I avoid air NZ J for the same reason, even though I love their soft product and crew.

  • Mikeact says:

    27 Aug27 August 08:54

    @David Keen. I don’t know whether or not you were Virgin pilot, but I can tell you that you are totally out of touch. I pay top dollars and do not expect a crap seat in UC. Luckily, Virgin have many superior competitors , hence with no guarantee, I can take my business elsewhere.

• planeconcorde says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:38

  It may help on bookings to New York where there are multiple flights per day. But as rebooking will be subject to availability, it will still be a risk there is no availability and the other flight times are acceptable. Such a guarantee would be worthless on routes with only one daily flight or less. As such it wouldn’t alter my approach to booking. I.e. still won’t book Virgin upper.

• FCP says:

  27 Aug27 August 05:43

  They could surely do like BA has putting old aircraft at Gatwick and then serving mainly leisure routes.

  You would think you do all possible to have best product on the JFK route and then oldest product on your leisure / holiday booking routes.

  Where possible of course.

  • BA Flyer IHG Stayer says:

    27 Aug27 August 09:01

    Totally ignoring that VS no longer fly from LGW and the leisure market is as important if not more important as business travel market at the moment.

    And I really hate this nonsense that some routes are business and some are leisure so just put the worse product on the ‘holiday” routes.

    • Rob says:

      27 Aug27 August 09:28

      This is the fundamental issue facing airlines now. People spending £2k of their own money on Business Class expect far more than the business traveller whose employer was spending £6k. £10 bottles of wine and Waitrose ready-meal quality food doesn’t cut it.

      • PH says:

        28 Aug28 August 14:30

        … which is why they may be happy to use the old seat on JFK — a higher % of people whose employer is paying in the cabin… takes longer for the complaints to hit the top line

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