Amex has cancelled all my cards!

[Cranzle]

I have it on good authority that most of these types of terminations are a result of people who are trigger happy issuing supplementary cards that seem out of the ordinary.

Key message – don’t abuse the supplementary card ‘feature’

And yes, it’s all to do with staying away from the dry cleaners

[louie]

Don’t know about you lot, but nowadays every time I get something from Amex my heart sinks, just in case I have somehow fallen foul of some unpublished Amex rule of which I am not aware. Probably not what their advertising department intends….

[Metty]

A few weeks ago, when son and daughter had their compensation for incorrect card blocking, Amex reactivated their cards. I wondered if they’d accidentally reactivated any of my supps, so tried a companion voucher BA booking on my card and it worked. But as it was a complicated space release type itinerary they sent it to the back office and the next day, Amex re-suspended that card.

Then a few days later son and daughter got the same termination letter that I had. A complaint explains that yes we shouldn’t have suspended your cards in the first place, hence the compo, but we called the accounts in for review and have now taken a business decision to terminate both accounts.

Meanwhile, Mrs Metty has still not received any letter terminating her, but did get a complaint response letter that seems to be written more by a human than AI which implied money laundering. Mrs Metty (or me as a supp) haven’t got time for clothes laundering never mind £$€!

My only real issue is that Amex haven’t given me the Tier Points I earnt in the challenge. Various GDPR breaches I’ll leave to FOS.

[Misty]

@Metty They certainly seem to have given you and your family the runaround on this, one would almost think they don’t know what they are doing. Good luck with FOS.

I’m like the poster above, where every time I get something from Amex my heart sinks. At least i’ve had a bit of variety lately with Barclay’s giving me the runaround. Hopefully that’s finally sorted now.

[Metty]

Time to feed back as the last FOS complaint has arrived, the one relating to my account closure. The investigator found Amex to be correct in all they did, it is fine to share all my personal data with those who had a supp card on my account and those whom I was a supp on. Investigator did not agree that Amex should award me my Tier Points earnt months before the account closure (like some others the TPs were mistakenly wrapped into Avios on the monthly sweep Amex > BA at statement time).

As I don’t know what Amex shared with FOS and I don’t know what caused a no warning account closure I can only speculate that it is likely the way I hit my Tier Point Challenge target by buying Avios. I doubt that it’s Amex culling OAPs as I have several similarly aged/good pension chums and they haven’t been cancelled.

Overall, FOS was definitely worth it as 3 of the 4 Mettys received compensation and apologies. SAR was worth doing but really just threw up many examples of Amex’s chaotic back office procedures. Not surprisingly my request for Hannah Amex boss to meet me for a piece to camera type chat didn’t get an answer.

Since this thread started I’ve met two people who also had accounts cancelled by Amex, but they both admit they were doing MS and card abuse to extremes and weren’t surprised that they got warning letters prior to account suspension. Also have had a message from someone who is still merrily doing MS to generate Avios which I can’t share here as it’ll spoil things for them. Some of what I’ve heard is frankly eye-watering!

Anyhow, we’re saving £2500/yr on Amex card fees but obviously missing out on Amex Companion Vouchers…not the end of the world for me as others book me as their companion.

I applied for Barclays Premium and happy enough with that for Avios earning. 🍻

[JDB]

@Metty – the issue of the FOS not sharing information supplied by respondents with the claimant is very strange and increasingly untenable. It allows unscrupulous respondents to provide false information either deliberately or by mistake as in the case reported here concerning Revolut refusing a couple’s huge medical claim on their honeymoon and I’m aware of another case involving IG Index.

It appears you decided not to escalate your case for an Ombudsman decision?

You didn’t miss much not having a chat with Hannah except a laugh. I met her with a couple of other people and afterwards we just burst out laughing as none of us actually understood what she had said. Just a string of meaningless corporate gobbledygook. Something like planning to circle back with some deliverables that would really move the needle after ideating with her team etc. etc. All nice and vague of course, nothing measurable.

[Metty]

@JDB 😀 yes it a shame Hannah’s PA didn’t fancy an opportunity to shame all those (supposedly) abusing Amex. I love a reminder of employed life and corporate-speak.

I’ll probably escalate as no reason not to, but there’s bigger issues to worry about such as where to get freshly cooked Plov this evening in Bukhara. Apprantly Uzbeks generally eat it at lunchtime….

Apols for filling forum space but I do despair of those who post, take all the advice but never feed back with a conclusion.

[Thaliasilje]

The most lucrative manufactured spending route is still being discussed in private Telegram groups, and it’s always fascinating to hear the lengths people will go to for an infinite (?) amount of points.

[JDB]

@Metty – yes, thank you for telling us of your outcome and too many posters don’t.

I hope you have a great time in Uzbekistan. I’m going to venture to that part of the world soon, but having recently discovered the wonders of the Balkans, that’s going to occupy me for a while and neither is of any interest to my wife so requires some negotiation. Just got a two week pink ticket for next year!

Anyway, more importantly re the FOS it is worth escalating to an Ombudsman as many of the investigators are really quite half baked and perhaps over inclined to lap up nonsense from Amex which is very adept at dealing with these cases. While there is the disadvantage of not seeing Amex’s arguments, you do have the opportunity to dissect and shred the investigator’s report, bring new arguments and effectively get a rehearing, which you absolutely wouldn’t in any legal appeal.

The issue as I see it is that Amex has closed your account under s98A(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by giving you two months notice. Amex has simultaneously invoked clauses from its own terms and conditions allowing it to suspend use of your account with immediate effect and depriving you of accumulated benefits and or the ability to reach milestones (such as the TPs or CV etc). That makes the account closure de facto one under s98A(4) but immediate closures (and suspension is identical in effect) under (4) require Amex to give reasons for the suspension/closure and for such reasons to be objectively justified.

Amex is in effect attempting to use its terms and conditions to circumvent its legal obligations which must make those conditions an unfair contract term. While Amex would argue that you signed up to those terms the fact is that these were not individually negotiated terms, they are abusing their superior bargaining power and they are unfair on every cardholder. You have acted in good faith and in reliance on fairness whereas Amex hasn’t complied with its obligations to treat you fairly and in accordance with the new Consumer Duty. It would appear also that the investigator is permitting you to be a victim of an Amex technical error in respect of the award of tier points as well as a totally incorrect analysis of the legal position.

There is absolutely no point in challenging the closure of your account because that is allowed and I would make it clear to the FOS that you aren’t seeking reinstatement. It’s the process that’s the problem. You simply want the winding up of your account to be concluded on a fair and lawful basis. Any alleged data breach is also just a distraction. The two issues (as I see the matter) are a) the manner of the closure and putting you back in the position as if Amex had acted properly and b) if I understand it correct the earning and award of TP’s happened prior to the account closure but Amex failed properly to transfer them to BA within the prescribed timelines, so Amex has absolutely no business depriving you of them by what is, in effect, an unfortunate coincidence/time. That too is unfair (using that word in its FCA sense). On both grounds, in my view, Amex is on very weak ground so I hope you will be able to persuade the Ombudsman.

You will probably be aware that financial services firms do communicate information about account closures to the FOS on a strictly confidential basis. I would raise this explicitly because Amex can’t use that secrecy to confuse closures under s98A(3) and (4). If Amex has any basis for closing/suspending your account immediately under (4) then the reasons and justification therefor must, by law, be communicated to you directly. If it is under (2) then the application of commercial terms in effect allowing Amex to disapply the law cannot be considered fair.

Lots of posters love to denigrate Creation but they did give two months notice allowing an extra 60 days of pillaging.

[Metty]

@JDB I appreciate the advice and yes, it’s just the process that I’m complaining about, I’ve never requested reinstatement. Thanks for taking the time to write the above; as it’s more coherent than my ramblings, I’ll take the liberty of using your words. Thanks and enjoy the Balkans!

@Thaliasilje one of the people who messaged me on the back of this thread suggested I sign up to a Telegram MS group, but as I had been ex-communicated from Amex by then, there didn’t seem to be much point! I don’t mind bending rules of the general sort here on HfP or using mistake fares but don’t willingly break rules, Paypal abuse etc.

[ChrisBCN]

Metty wrote:

As I don’t know what Amex shared with FOS

Could you raise a SAR with FOS? Might tell you what Amex shared with them, and see if you have a claim for the ICO…

[JDB]

ChrisBCN wrote:

Metty wrote:

As I don’t know what Amex shared with FOS

Could you raise a SAR with FOS? Might tell you what Amex shared with them, and see if you have a claim for the ICO…

No you can’t! This category of ‘data’ is exempt and might also be privileged. I’m not sure what you mean by a ‘claim’ to the ICO? You don’t get compensation for this sort of issue, the organisation is simply asked to rectify the position if it was wrong in the first place. It also doesn’t really matter what Amex has shared with the FOS (unless you have reason to believe it were false) as long as the FOS is on notice to distinguish and interpret any information they receive.

[Wiseoldman]

@JDB well written and coherent advice!

[JDB]

@metty re the superior bargaining power of Amex, it may sound a bit casual, but it is cited at s62 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and Schedule 2 of the same Act has some additional potentially relevant points. I would add this (with references and citations) to your submissions.

[zapato1060]

When I picture JDB, I see Greg Peck in To Kill a Mockingbird.
I’m part of one of these ms groups and to be fair, it’s not much more than abuses of f&f (madness in my eyes) that you mentioned and/or Revolut usages which have obvs subsided with the blocks and what not. Other smaller stuff but nothing like selling kidney on the black market type of stuff.
Hope you get a great verdict Metty.

[vzzbuckz]

All very useful advice but ultimately pointless unless the value of the Points you’ve lost is more than the time you would spend trying to reclaim them. I’ve always thought of civil law as an exercise in weighing up cost / benefit – you may well have the moral high ground but it’s going to cost you. If money is no object, then go for it (whatever ‘it’ is).

[Metty]

And the Ombudsman’s decision is finally here. He found in Amex’s favour, so the one thing that I actually wanted – the Tier Points from the Challenge – won’t be awarded as he thinks Amex have correctly swept them to BA and it’s BA’s issue, not Amex’s.

BA are absolutely adamant it is Amex’s issue; they agree that my Amex statements show the TP earning but Amex sent the TPs as Avios and so that’s what BA credited. Their argument makes sense as there would have to be some sort of flag on what is sent from one IT to another to differentiate.

Of interest is that the Ombudsman’s judgement says the account terms did allow Amex to suspend an account in certain circumstances. It has explained to this service – in confidence, as our rules allow – why it felt it necessary to do so in this case. In the circumstances, I am satisfied that it was within its rights to suspend the accounts.

I take from this that whatever Amex’s grounds for cancelling me and the family without any warnings, KYC requests etc must appear reasonable to the Ombudsman which makes me even more curious as I’ve still no idea what I did, if anything, but one would imagine there was a trigger. Whatever it was hasn’t manifested itself in any other financials since (Virgin, Barclaycard, CapOnTap etc). I’d happily sign a NDA to find out the reason!

The Ombudsman also didn’t think there was any breach of confidence and that my other family members received appropriate cancellation notices of their accounts. The latter is simply wrong; the children had cards cancelled, Amex paid compo and reinstated then cancelled again. Mrs Metty haas never received any formal notification whatsoever of her card being cancelled so if that’s a measure of what Amex have shared with the Ombudsman then I guess they can just share a pack of lies.

The end. I think 🙂

[Lady London]

So remind me again why any of you pay £700 each year for a card to be treated like this if you’re not using it for trips to the dry cleaners?

I am not sure if the particular Ombudsman was as incompetent on understanding the tier points issue as they sound although government entities have again recntly said the FOS is incompetent.

But I am sure that American Express has used their privilege of confidentiality abusively to at least say things which were not true to the FOS and their actions have clearly also been unfair.

“Trial without being able to see the charges against you to defend yourself” and the loyal witch customer of American Express, of 30 years has been burnt.

[rams]

Ombudsman staff in my experience are fairly clueless people. Take ages to “review” things and tend to side with the business even when they’ve behaved poorly. Waste of time referring cases to them.

One notable exception is Creation-gate I guess

[JDB]

@Metty – thank you for updating us and I’m sorry to hear the outcome. I fear that in pursuing the issue of the closure and confidentiality vis-à-vis other family members that has, as previously posted on 19 Sep, got in the way of addressing the TP and Avios. There’s simply no upside in complaining about the first two issues and it’s just a distraction. The trouble is that TP/Avios are almost certainly outside the ken of most Ombudsman; it’s just not something they are used to dealing with. This means that you need to spell things out for them. I’m not sure I had understood that your TP/Avios were ‘in transit’ rather than withheld which is obviously a very different problem.

Whenever anyone posts about missing companion vouchers/TP/Avios and Amex sends people to BA, it’s just a way of fobbing them off; the responsibility lies with Amex. In practical terms, Amex is the sender of a ‘package’ and until it is actually delivered to you, it’s their problem in exactly the same way as any other package sent by a ‘retailer’.

You say “the end” and it is as far as the FOS is concerned, but it’s worth trying to press BA on the basis of the FOS decision. You have been given a formal decision stating BA is responsible – make them act accordingly. You can ask Amex to provide all the relevant tracking data.

@rams – there are around 40 Ombudsmen and a lot of them seem very intelligent if you read their published decisions which are cogently argued. There are unfortunately some rather flaky ones as well and many of the investigators are hopelessly lightweight. In terms of “tending to side with the business” the quarterly statistics they publish say otherwise. I think that perception may stem from complainants thinking their case is better than it actually is when looked at objectively.

[rams]

@jdb thanks for your message. I should correct my point to say investigators and not the ombudsmen themselves. I have not had many dealings with them. Investigators on the other hand (are they junior ombudsman in training?) are fairly hopeless and don’t understand many basic things.

[John]

I feel that lots of financial institutions have invested heavily in predictive “AI” anti-fraud solutions and trained them on poorly-defined criteria. When the software flags up a customer who hasn’t really done anything wrong except being an outlier on some sort of subgroup analysis, they won’t back down and would rather just pay the occasional ombudsman fee, or compensation if they happen to lose the case.

I’m not saying this is definitely the case here, but I can imagine a bank saying “our new proprietary top-secret fraud detection system says such and such behaviour is associated with increased risk”. It would not be easy for the ombudsman to reject this argument.

[points_worrier]

Interesting. My guess would be Amex supplied something relatively anodyne, that would apply to many people. They have just simply used it as an excuse for closing your account immediately. A bit sad it worked, as it means protections for individuals against the immediate account closure are basically completely toothless. Closing with notice is always possible, from either side.

With regards to the TPs, you have definitely not what you were contractually owed. If you really wanted to pursue it, you could assign a value to them, and pursue them in the small claims court with both Amex and British Airways as respondents. The judge would then decide who was responsible.