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If the flight is in November, you could always just chill out and wait for BA to almost inevitably change the schedule again. You might well then have First reinstated on your preferred day of travel. I don’t see the need for any hand wringing or fury at this stage.
very much so!
Good Morning All,
Admittedly I wasnt particularly optimistic about the complaint response that BA would offer, however even I am slightly aghast at the pure indifference of consideration in their response and although they are well within their rights not to action any compensation prior to my flight; I feel from a customer facing organisation they should really appraise the satisfaction of their customers, and moreover the likely future consequence of an enhanced statutory compensation package once the flight has been flown (BA response below).
On the basis of the below, I would be interested in thoughts of how to respond and what action to take as a result, I would surmise cutting through all the comments the best course of action is to travel in the newly assigned cabin and follow the UK261 complaint protocol following the flight, if BA still wont offer adequate compensation at that time?
Thanks for your comments/assistance in advance
Richard
Your feedback to British Airways
Thanks for contacting us.
For the specific pre-travel concerns you have raised, I’d like to inform you that we at Customer Relations are unable to help you, as we only deal with post travel issues.I’d also like to inform you that we’re unable to make flight changes/cancellations or conduct any money transactions via email (there are payment card regulations covering this), nor do we have access to some of the systems used in our contact centres.
I’d request you to contact our Customer Support team on 0344 493 0787. They are better placed than us to help you, as they deal with all pre-travel enquiries, and they will be able to give you individual assistance. We at Customer Relations only deal with post travel issues.
We hope to welcome you back on board soon.I’m afraid all this puts you in something of a bind. BA does offer Customer Relations as a post travel service only with sales/reservations supposed to deal with matters before you fly. Some here have suggested sitting this out in case BA changes the aircraft again which is a possible course of (in)action but if BA were to swap back to an aircraft with an F cabin, they won’t be obliged to give you the seats back; your original F booking is now cancelled.
If you do decide to fly in Club and claim the 75%, this is a type of claim that BA almost invariably challenges and it will rely upon the long notice period, ‘extraordinary’ operational circumstances requiring an aircraft change, that you refused the offer of an F alternative and that you voluntarily accepted the change to travel in the highest class offered on the aircraft. I’m not saying any of that is necessarily correct, but it is roughly what they will say which will additionally also be peppered with a few oddities.
There is also the strange complication in your case of the extra cost of travelling in the lower class which they may try to exclude from the calculation or use as a basis for paying nothing at all.
I’m afraid all this puts you in something of a bind. BA does offer Customer Relations as a post travel service only with sales/reservations supposed to deal with matters before you fly. Some here have suggested sitting this out in case BA changes the aircraft again which is a possible course of (in)action but if BA were to swap back to an aircraft with an F cabin, they won’t be obliged to give you the seats back; your original F booking is now cancelled.
If you do decide to fly in Club and claim the 75%, this is a type of claim that BA almost invariably challenges and it will rely upon the long notice period, ‘extraordinary’ operational circumstances requiring an aircraft change, that you refused the offer of an F alternative and that you voluntarily accepted the change to travel in the highest class offered on the aircraft. I’m not saying any of that is necessarily correct, but it is roughly what they will say which will additionally also be peppered with a few oddities.
There is also the strange complication in your case of the extra cost of travelling in the lower class which they may try to exclude from the calculation or use as a basis for paying nothing at all.
Yes, indeed, it does sound a pickle, how convincing and justifiable their case is, especially considering the still lengthy time to travel is and the even odder disparity of club being more avios than first in compensatory considerations. It would be nice for BA to actual be reasonable and offer something proportionate to ‘common’sense’of the downgrade theyre suggesting/mandating, but no sense to live in dreamland.
Another thought is that i need to re-book seats in club now, but does this make me complicit in accepting the cabin change from their point of view?
@JDB Downgrade compensation unlike cancellation/delay compensation applies regardless of the circumstances. It also has to be paid within seven days of the flight, so if the airline delays payment you’re very likely to get interest awarded by the judge.
@JDB Downgrade compensation unlike cancellation/delay compensation applies regardless of the circumstances. It also has to be paid within seven days of the flight, so if the airline delays payment you’re very likely to get interest awarded by the judge.
@meta I am aware that there is no temporal element in the legislation re downgrading, but that is not how BA (and other airlines) usually deal with these cases, arguing that long notice downgrades relating to aircraft or configuration changes are not actually downgrades at all. I believe that the legislation also didn’t contemplate this situation, but rather on the day downgrades. BA will also insist it was voluntary…On a separate note, while it is popular wisdom that the passenger gets 75% of the Avios and non disbursed charges/taxes per person even with a 241, I reread the leading CJEU case (Mennens v Emirates) today which doesn’t quite concur:-
“Article 10(2) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased.”
Thanks Meta & JDB, so it would appear my best bet is still to proceed on the basis of flying with the newly assigned cabin (i.e. club)?
Is it worth a nibble back at BA complaints team, I suppose there is little point as they have made their position clear and I cant imagine theyll be deterred from that position.
I think you will get the same response again from BA Customer Relations – i.e. we only deal with post travel issues and in any event, I’m not sure what your complaint would be asking them to do. Agents have very little discretion these days, so there isn’t going to be a common sense answer. The downgrade has happened and there is a statutory remedy for that which only applies after you have travelled. In respect of whether the calculation of the increased Avios and de minimis cash refund that’s something to check with sales/ticketing and you could potentially test with dummy bookings.
Just make sure you have it in writing that this is involuntary downgrade.
@JDB yes, Mennens case clearly stipulates taxes are excluded, but these days there are carrier imposed charge (not in 2004) and they do vary by class and also government taxes vary by class such as APD.On redemption flights, especially with the introduction of RFS, it will be hard for BA to argue that charges are not part of ticket cost itself. Of course this is also down to how you present the case.
Personally I think an airline unilaterally throwing you out of First or Club for whatever reason is very close to a cancellation. In fact if the flight continues and you receive a cancellation notice this means BA or QR or whoever has offloaded you and you have full cancellation rights provided by EU261 (right to choose reroute now or later, right to choose refund -or not- being your choice not the airline’s, etc.). However the legisltion, for downgrade cases is unfortunately not written the way I would like 🙁
A cancellation/offload notified to you at least 14 days ahead of the flight will get the airline out of paying compensation though you do have the above rights and some others. But as @meta says, if you are downgraded there is no exemption to their reimbursement of what you paid – 75% in the case of longhaul from First or from Club to a lower class.
The problem with a downgrade is that technically you are still stuck with taking that flight in the lower class. Anything the airline agrees to do for you other than that is their choice. There is no legislation requiring them to do any more than the downgrade reimbursement and that, only after you’ve actually flown it in the lower class and put a claim in.
I’d write BA a very nice paragraph saying how much you’d been looking forwrd to flying in First on [route] [date] and how very disappointed you and your [partner?] are, to be unexpectedly informed by BA that the First service you have booked will no longer be provided to you on your flight. Due to [related [hotel] and other [transport?] / [event date] [purpose of travel] you do still need to travel to [destination] on that date and so you ask them to reinstate you in First if there is any later change enabling this.
However should it not be possible to reinstate the travel in First you have booked on your travel date then as this would be such a disappointment you will be promptly claiming the 75% reimbursement provided by legislation [for each seat] will be required to be paid to you within 7 days of the flight. In case of lack of promptness you will additionally request interest to be applied as from the 8th day following the flight until paid in full.
This shores you up against any later attempt by BA to deny that your downgrade was involuntary.
Some great points and definitely plenty of food for thought. The overriding consensus being to fly in club world for the journey in question and duly claim the compensation for the downgrade within the stipulated 7-day period post-flight.
@lady london thanks for the template for BA; that seems a very robust and thorough way of closing any BA wriggle room on the matter, and works on a very clear premise to BA on my part. Would you suggest sending this to the complaints team or customer service team or both?I phoned British Airways Executive Club again today to look at if I have to accept the mandated downgrade to club; they did advise I would have to accept the new booking changes to club world up to 24 hours before the flight unless it would be cancelled, and also due to this being cabin change not a cancellation I cant even cancel the booking without incurring the cancellation fees. So Im left with 1 scenario which is accept the change (other 2 alterantives being changing date which I cant do or pay the canellation fee to get my taxes and avios back).
Now to the focal point of my query which is, if I do accept their downgrade proposal, does this then deem any right to cliaming EC261 void, as I have accepted this change, even if it is mandated without alternative options? It feels like they may have me in a corner.
As a side note I have sent the letter suggested by @ladylondon to the complaints and customer service team.
Thanks
RichardBA can indeed downgrade you but then need to pay back 75% of the avios/money paid (this is for all passengers even if you used a 241 and paid no avios for your companion). This is for only the sector downgraded.
Hi Richard
At the end of the day if you want to take the trip and BA are no longer offering the First class cabin, you have to accept the Club world downgrade. Accepting this will NOT affect your ability to claim for the 75% EU / UK 261 reimbursement. Of course, BA will not volunteer to pay this and you are very likely to have to take them to CEDR or MCOL. I have never been through MCOL but have been through the CEDR process 3 times for downgrading by BA on 241 reward flights and have received a 75% cash reimbursement on each occasion. BA will come up with all sorts of excuses including• This does not apply to reward bookings.
• They told you in advance so it does not apply.
• The passenger could have changed their flight to a different one with no downgrade.
• You did not turn up at check in with a First class boarding card so it does not apply.
• The companion voucher passenger’s ticket was “free” so no reimbursement for them.
• They may have already given you the difference in Avios cost and that is all you are due.
• BA can’t provide reimbursement in cash as it was paid for using Avios.The above is of course all nonsense and just trying to get you to give up!
The test in EU / UK 261 Article 10 is “If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse … 75 % of the price of the ticket” for flights greater than 3500 km. You are likely to be due the reimbursement in CASH less the government and airport fees and charges but including the BA carrier imposed charges all as per the Mennens v Emirates judgement. The Avios cash value can be calculated using the up-to-date price BA sells Avios for on ba.com. BA will dispute the relevance of this but CEDR understood it in my cases.
This is all a bit of work but worth it in the end. Get a copy of EU / UK 261 which is easy to read and follow.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Enjoy the trip.
@Magarathea – it’s incredibly helpful to highlight the arguments BA regularly uses as too many cases are lost because the passenger doesn’t present the case clearly/precisely enough such that BA’s bad arguments win. The instant case is a little more complicated than some in that the downgrade has an additional cost that needs to be carefully considered when making the claim.
For downgrade reimbursment,as in this instance, How do you get the equivelent cash cost of an Avios booking? as the cash prices are dynamic. Is there a set amount per Avios?
EDIT
I re read @Margarathea post. Explained. Thank you.Thats good to know then regarding the right to claim under EC261, I will indeed persist with the matter and have catalogued my correspondence with BA, including my letter stating my reasons for still flygin and how I plan to claim the reimbursement post-flight should the downgrade be maintained, so hopeful this gives a trail of clear information which leads to a more complelling case my end.
The avios paid was 285600 (2 adult (comp), 1 child & 1 infant) and £1771 taxes, so if my maths is right this would be 75% of 142800 = 107100 avios or 158100 avios if the companion isnt accounted for in the compensation and £664 of the taxes and fees.
However if I read correctly it sounds like the settlement is potentially fully in cash value, which say at an avios value of 1.77p (for buying 150000 on ba.com), so say 75% of 142800 * 1.77p – £664 (t&f) = £1234 or for not assuming the companion vch it would be £2138; however this is all debatable depending on the value they hold for avios, and somewhat lower than the value they hold for the actual cash value of the first tickets.
It sounds like im definitely not the first to walk down this path……….
Thats good to know then regarding the right to claim under EC261, I will indeed persist with the matter and have catalogued my correspondence with BA, including my letter stating my reasons for still flygin and how I plan to claim the reimbursement post-flight should the downgrade be maintained, so hopeful this gives a trail of clear information which leads to a more complelling case my end.
The avios paid was 285600 (2 adult (comp), 1 child & 1 infant) and £1771 taxes, so if my maths is right this would be 75% of 142800 = 107100 avios or 158100 avios if the companion isnt accounted for in the compensation and £664 of the taxes and fees.
However if I read correctly it sounds like the settlement is potentially fully in cash value, which say at an avios value of 1.77p (for buying 150000 on ba.com), so say 75% of 142800 * 1.77p – £664 (t&f) = £1234 or for not assuming the companion vch it would be £2138; however this is all debatable depending on the value they hold for avios, and somewhat lower than the value they hold for the actual cash value of the first tickets.
It sounds like im definitely not the first to walk down this path……….
I think you’re actually due more than what you’re calculating.
Despite BA’s misleading claims, you are entitled to reimbursement based on the Avios it would have cost you to make the booking without the voucher (otherwise you are getting nothing for having used up the voucher). This looks to have been 421,600 Avios. It’s unclear whether you have been downgraded in both directions or just from DOH-LHR, but if it’s the latter then the relevant number of Avios would of course be halved to 210,800.
You are then entitled to 75% of this, plus 75% of the carrier surcharge to the extent that this varies by class of travel. For a return journey, the YQ looks to be £288 per adult/child in F and £282 per adult/child in J, so this qualifies – but is the same £14 for the infant whether in F or J, so this bit doesn’t qualify. Clearly a ‘false economy’ on BA’s part to charge £6 extra in YQ for F!
Therefore, if downgraded both ways it looks like you’re entitled to 316,200 Avios (75% of 421,600) plus £648 (75% of 3 * £288). The maximum amount of Avios you can buy at once is 200k, at a cost of £3539 – this equates to 1.7695p per Avios. So for 316,200 Avios you’re looking at an equivalent cost of £5595.16. Add on your £648 YQ reimbursement and the total is £6243.16.
If downgraded only in one direction, you’re entitled to half that – £3121.58.
Clearly there’s a lot of money at stake here, so I wouldn’t be giving up the fight on this one easily!
I’m a bit confused as to the amount of Avios you paid. You say: “The avios paid was 285600 (2 adult (comp), 1 child & 1 infant) and £1771 taxes so if my maths is right this would be 75% of 142800 = 107100 avios or 158100 avios if the companion isnt accounted for”
Just want to confirm that the 285600 Avios was the total you paid for a return journey in First Class for 2 adults and 1 child and 1 infant ie 4 pax?
And that it is only the return journey that all of you are being downgraded on? Or are you being downgraded both ways? I think it’s the former.
You need to break down the Avios and YQ cash paid for each passenger and only for the sector being downgraded. Remember that the 75% reimbursement is for each passenger (so for 4 passengers) regardless of the fact that you only paid half the Avios because you used a companion voucher.
So you need to do the calculation 4 times because you need the amount paid for each adult (use the single adult figures twice to take account of the companion voucher) and the amount for one child and the amount for an infant. When you have the actual Avios paid for each passenger then you can calculate the 75% figure. And then you convert the Avios into £ figure at the price you pay to buy Avios, remembering to calculate 75% of the YQ cash element for the sector(s) being downgraded.
Also be very clear when you do claim that you are claiming for “Downgrade reimbursement per Article 10 of EC261/2004 as adopted into UK law via the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018”
Do not use the words “downgrade compensation” because it is not compensation! BA will ignore your claim and simply reply to that effect if you do use the word compensation. Remember it is a refund of 75% of the fare paid.
Morning AJA, yes apologies I should of been clearer in my description of the calculations, it is indeed one-way reimbursement only, i.e. is 68000 avios PAX with 6800 avios for the infant, meaning 51000 and 5100 avios respectively as 75%. So the 158100 stated reimbursement would be from 3*51000 + 5100.
It seems now I wont have any more to do on the matter with BA until flying the effected flight, at which stage I can contact BA complaints team to further the reimbursement request under Article 10 of EC261/2004.
The advice has been most helpful to unravel the tangled web of airline regulations.
Thanks for replying . I agree with the 158,100 Avios figure. Don’t forget to add the YQ cash element you paid. That’s a fairly chunky cash refund which only goes some way to soften the blow of not travelling in First.
And yes if you’ve now accepted the club tickets there’s nothing to do until after the flight.
Feel free to ask questions again before you actually submit the claim. More than happy to help out where I can.
Good morning all
Unfortunately on our recent family trip we encountered 3 problems including downgrade of my sister on her birthday from First to Club. (Also outbound delayed luggage and over 3 hours delayed arrival on return)
Reading this thread it looks like it is a battle to get the reimbursements due
The downgrade happened at check-in due to overbooking of the first class cabin (this is clearly stated on the boarding card . No prior notification.
Potential complication is I booked my sister flights via Cathay Pacific Asia miles. (Had some orphaned miles I wanted to use up)Wonder if it possible for me to share the email and pdf I sent to BA for people for any advice.
First time making an airline claim and not sure if I have been clear and covered all I should haveThanka
Hi @rakesh That sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Have you actually sent the letter and want confirmation that it reads ok or are you asking for advice on how to compose it?
Either way I think you have 3 separate issues. 1 – The delayed baggage – you were entitled to purchase emergency clothing and essentials on arrival at destination. I think this is straightforward, BA should just pay out. No compensation for the actual delay though.
2 – over 3 hour delay on return. Success on this depends on the reasons for the delay and whether it was due to extraordinary circumstances ie issues outside of BA’s control such as weather.
3 – The downgrade reimbursement claim
This is an open and shut case as it was done at check-in unlike the other case in this thread.
Your sister is entitled to reimbursement of 75% of the fare including YQ fees paid in cash but excluding true taxes such as UK APD.The complication is that it was purchased using Cathay Pacific Asia Miles. I think that is why BA selected your sister for downgrade. BA apologists may disagree. The issue is because it involves another frequent flyer programme currency BA cannot refund you that currency as it is not in Avios.
I think the best strategy would be to set out the cash equivalent of the fare you paid Does Cathay Pacific allow you to buy Asia Miles like BA does with Avios? If so just convert the Miles into cash using that price eg
80,000 Asia Miles @ HKD1 each = HKD80,000
YQ fees paid on fare = HKD1,200
Total cash equivalent fare paid = HKD81,200
GBP1 = HKD10
Therefore HKD81,200 = GBP8,120Therefore I am claiming GBP8,120 X 75% = GBP6,090
The figures above are just made up for illustration.
If however it is difficult to calculate a cash equivalent of Asia Miles then the claim will be much more difficult to justify but that should not stop you from claiming.
I hope that your letter is similar and covers the points as above. That said Id happily review what you received f6om BA and what you wrote just copy the text here (delete any personal info first such as names FF Nos PNRs seat nos etc)
hi,
so far i have sent an email, with summary attached and copies of receipts
hopefully you can click on the links and see what i sentlink to spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSMSv9Ong70bGoKkCiMFWE0M6uLTIxuGhw6Xa0gNNmYPkJTnG3ytX-g4AesgMzswk7OctbgIVcByips/pubhtmlalso sent scans of all the receipts
sent to the office of CEO..
I would try to keep it as brief as possible. Probably best to leave out the complements and the mention of future trips in your email; if you’d like to make a complement, best to do so in a separate contact form. Something like the below (literally one sentence, in fact no “Hello” or “Kind regards” is really needed) will do for the main email – the shorter your email, the quicker your response will be.
Attached is a summary of the issues, with supporting documents.
Your spreadsheet laying out the problems is generally clear, but there is no point claiming general compensation for spoiling the holiday, and certainly there is no way that BA would entertain a claim for £3500 for this. I’ve no doubt that you will have had a terrible experience, but ultimately you are best served by focusing your claim on what you have a clear-cut entitlement to – the luggage expenses, Mennens downgrade reimbursement, right to care expenses, and UK261 delay compensation.
I’d expect BA to potentially push back on the delayed luggage expenses – it’s not for me to judge but £4592, even between 6 people, does seem on the high side to me. Also, for the extra meal at the hotel – surely, whether before departing BDA or on arrival at LHR, there would have been a lounge at either end that you could use?
Anyway, please keep us updated on the outcome of your claim, though you may wish to do so in a separate thread so that it’s not mixed up with the outcome of the claim made by the original poster of this thread.
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