BA flight cancellation and rebook c£2k claim rejected – advice please

[ExpatInBerlin]

Please can anyone offer me advice for a friend regarding a recent BA flight issue that resulted in her forking out c£2k for new flights at very short notice?

The flight in question was BA0875 from Budapest to London Heathrow at 21:15 on Sunday 21st July. My friend and her daughter were booked on this flight (having paid to change from the Monday 22nd BA flight to the Sunday 21st due to a change of plans) and they boarded as normal – there were no messages on the departures board about the flight being either delayed or cancelled.

After boarding, they then sat for approximately 2.5 hours on the tarmac at BUD. At this time, the reason given by the pilot was that he was only permitted to fly a certain number of hours per week under CAA rules and he had exceeded these (due to Crowdstrike issues). He said that he had informed the BA Operations at LHR of this prior to boarding. BA Ops said they would apply for a special dispensation for him to pilot the flight to LHR.

The pilot then updated passengers several times whilst stationary on the tarmac to say that there were two additional complications: a weather event over central Europe which meant that ATC were restricting the number of flights travelling through this area. Also, the delay caused by trying to get the CAA to grant the dispensation had meant that the flight would be landing at LHR during the night time period when landing is prohibited so another separate dispensation would be required to permit the landing. My friend has said that she feels the pilot flight hours were the problem, but this was never explicitly made clear. They de-boarded at around midnight.

Strangely, the flight trackers showed the flight as having taken off even though they were still sat on the tarmac at the point. There were no BA staff at the airport to advise what to do next or to offer a replacement flight free of charge the next day (I’m not sure if she received any emails about rebooking but I assume not as she is highly organised and kept notes of the situation) so my friend went on the BA app and booked the next available flight home the following day, ultimately paying for two flights. The total cost of the two lots of flights for her and her daughter was c £2,000 plus out of pocket expenses of £563 for overnight accommodation and food etc (BA have agreed to cover the £563, but not the new flight costs, which incidentally was for the flight she was originally booked on but had paid to change to the Sunday night).

The email response she has received from BA Customer Operations regarding their refusal to cover the cost of the new flights reads:

“We’re sorry it was necessary to delay your flight from Budapest on 21 July and we understand why you needed to get in contact about this. We take all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight and we’ll always consider if there are any alternative solutions available before we make a decision. We’d also like to thank you for your patience while we got back to you about this.

Your claim for compensation has been refused because BA0875 on 21 July was delayed because on the day you were due to travel, Air Traffic Control restricted operations.”

Please can anyone advise whether she has a case to be reimbursed for the new flight costs/rights to cancellation compensation e.g., EC261? Really grateful for any advice on this.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

The total cost of the two lots of flights for her and her daughter was c £2,000 plus

BA aren’t going to reimburse the cost of both sets of flights.

Even then for the new flights they may reject that because your friend didn’t give them any time to rebook the cancelled flight but just booked new flights.

The fact the ‘new flight’ was the same as the original but changed booking is neither here nor there.

[NorthernLass]

The place to look for rebooking options would have been in MMB, they wouldn’t necessarily have received an email.

Which airline charged £2000 to fly 2 people from BUD to London?!

[ExpatInBerlin]

Thanks both. I think the c£2k refers to the total cost for both sets of BA flights, she was hoping to recover the costs of one of them (I’ve only had all this info via email). Agreed it’s unfortunate that she rebooked immediately rather than assess any rebooking options in MMB, I think the stress of being offloaded at midnight and needing to find overnight accommodation meant she just wanted to have a flight rebooked for the next day, especially as she was due to be back in the UK for work on the Monday. Is there any chance of EC261 for the cancelled Sunday night flight do you think please?

[SamG]

The mention of £2k and changing the flights etc is confusing and unnecessary detail so they probably misunderstood what was actually being claimed

Submit another claim for only the new Monday flights as a rerouting expense with a simple explanation (i.e. 2 lines) that BA could not be reached and online rebooking wasn’t available. They will hopefully then pay

Any compensation claim likely wouldn’t be successful- check the flyertalk BA cancellation thread and see if the code got posted. It’s possible the flight operated back empty as sometimes it’s the handling out of hours at LHR which is the restricting factor

[cabal of rabid baboons]

@ExpatBerlin, I think that your friend may have been a bit hasty in not giving BA the opportunity to reroute them, was the flight even booked directly with BA?
We can’t expect BA to be represented at every outstation and the the Manage your Booking option on the website if clearly the best option under these circumstances and this would be a tricky case to win at MCOL in my opinion

[SamG]

If they’d booked on another carrier then possibly but they flew on BA so BA loses no money refunding them for seats they’d have been able to fly in anyway FOC

We’ve seen similar posts on here before and BA have refunded , I’m pretty sure they’re well aware their IRROPS handling is weak especially at outstations, it takes a while for MMB to update with any options

[NorthernLass]

If the pilot announced that he was out of hours then it’s worth submitting a very clear and concise separate compensation claim as this would not be extraordinary circs. BA can decline again if this turned out not to be the actual reason in the end.

Just say that at (approx time) the captain announced that he was out of hours and therefore the flight was cancelled, and you are claiming £220 each in compensation.

We had a similar situation a few weeks ago and BA paid out within a fortnight.

[yonasl]

Sometimes BA are a little tricky with claims.

For instance if you wrote “I had to rebook so please provide £2,000 compensation” they will rightly claim the flight suffered “unexpected circumstances” and no compensation is due.

If you wrote “please refund the cost of alternative flights” then you may have less trouble.

As people say avoid all detail. “My flight BA123 on mmddyy was cancelled, MMB showed no alternative options so we booked BA456 on mmddyy. Please refund the £x paid for these flights”.

[Londonsteve]

NorthernLass wrote:

Which airline charged £2000 to fly 2 people from BUD to London?!

That was the evening after the Hungarian F1 GP so flights will have been rammed, further compounded by the cancellation. The OP’s friend probably bought the last two seats and as it was a very short notice booking, BA was charging finger in the air stuff. Still, I’m surprised you can spend that much as that as I thought a fully flexible Economy seat was around £800 one way on that route. It’s entirely possible that alternative options were available in MMB but the OP’s friend didn’t check, or it might have been too soon to show if the cancellation hadn’t yet percolated through BA’s systems.

I don’t see how BA can get out of refunding the cost of the flights as they were on the hook to provide alternative flights in any event, moreover they flew on BA. Unless BA is wily at times like these and wants to keep back seats on more imminent departures for last minute cash buyers and force those on cancelled services to take a later, emptier, and therefore lower yielding service? The morning and afternoon flights on the following day will have been full of F1 crews, their sponsors and indeed, spectators keen to get back soon after the race was over.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

@LondonSteve

It appears the £2k was the cost of both sets of flights – the original and the self rebooking. BA won’t reimburse both.

I don’t see how BA can get out of refunding the cost of the flights as they were on the hook to provide alternative flights in any event, moreover they flew on BA

Yes BA would be on the hook to reimburse the replacement flight cost but passengers need to give them (indeed any airline) time to propose a rebooking to the affected passengers.

If you go off piste. and just rebook then you haven’t given the airline a chance to meet its obligations and that’s a get out from them reimbursing you.

[ExpatInBerlin]

Thank you everyone for your inputs, much appreciated and very helpful. It was indeed the weekend of the Hungarian Grand Prix (which my friend was attending) which undoubtedly was the reason for the cost of rebooking new BA flights being so astronomical. To clarify, all the flights were booked directly with BA via the app. I will advise my friend, as suggested, to submit a new claim for the cost of the Monday flights as a rerouting expense due to the cancellation of the flight the night before, as well as a separate speculative compensation claim due to the pilot being out of hours. Hopefully BA will agree to refund the alternative flight costs for her. I think this is an example of how if you aren’t someone who is clued in to how cancellations and refunds work etc, if you find yourself in this situation you can panic and rebook yourself because you don’t know that the airline is required to re-route you but that you have to give them a chance to do it. I feel very fortunate to have found HfP when I did!

[Ihar]

EU261. Slam dunk. As has been said, you are confusing it with too many details.

Flight didn’t happen (regardless). Hotel, expenses, next flight (which was BA regardless of cost). So you can claim expenses and cost of replacement flights (less original flights). I think the additional compensation might be a stretch and could confuse things.

Pilot of of hours or ATC delays – again it muddles the argument and you’ll delay it. I’d have done the same as you, but I’d ask to be “made whole”, not to ask for compensation on top.

[JDB]

@lhar – although I have been sacked by @LadyLondon from offering any 261 advice on this site, may I just say there is no such thing as a ‘slam dunk’ case. Each case needs to considered on its own factual matrix and the failure to do so is the downfall of many. BA is very creative and wins many cases that you would perhaps call ‘slam dunk’ precisely because the claimant thinks they don’t need to make much effort to tailor their claims to the very precise circumstances.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

JDB wrote:

@lhar – although I have been sacked by @LadyLondon from offering any 261 advice on this site, may I just say there is no such thing as a ‘slam dunk’ case. Each case needs to considered on its own factual matrix and the failure to do so is the downfall of many. BA is very creative and wins many cases that you would perhaps call ‘slam dunk’ precisely because the claimant thinks they don’t need to make much effort to tailor their claims to the very precise circumstances.

@JDB There are lots of people whom I’d prefer didn’t give 261 advice but you’re not one of them so post as much as you like even if it irks some people.

@lhar this is finer than a black and white “slam dunk” if the pilot went (as was due to) to out of hours due to ATC restrictions then is that BAs fault and so not compensational whereas if it was due to poor BA operations it might be.

[NorthernLass]

@JDB, I tired of that particular thread long before it ended but I am certain that that is not the case! You and @LL have differing views on the issue, and you yourself are fully aware that each case is dealt with on its own merit and is dependent on the interpretation of a particular judge.

Whether people decide to take your advice or not, it always adds something to the debate and provides food for thought. (Equally, so does that of @LL and other contributors, of course).

In this case, I would submit 2 separate claims -if the pilot hours issue is in fact the genuine reason for the cancellation, BA’s compo bot may well just approve the claim and pay out very quickly, otherwise a definite rejection may be forthcoming. Either way, this matter is sorted for the claimant and she can focus on the reimbursement claim instead.

[Londonsteve]

I suspect the pilot going out of hours was due to BA timetabling the departure of the usual 6pm departure from BUD until 9pm that day (they never ordinarily have a depature that late from BUD) so that post-racegoers could reach the flight. As a result, the crew spent an extra 3 hours on the tarmac and ATC restrictions would have put the pilot out of hours. In this case if it went to court I’m guessing they would side with BA on the basis that if the flight was allowed to depart as scheduled the pilot would not have been out of hours.

[Ihar]

JDB wrote:

@lhar – although I have been sacked by @LadyLondon from offering any 261 advice on this site, may I just say there is no such thing as a ‘slam dunk’ case.

Well I like and value your input. I think there are procedural mistakes in the OP’s new flight purchase (not contacting BA), but if was on BA metal, directly with BA, and in the same class then “no harm, no foul”. EU261 in action.

As I said earlier, as for compensation the OP is “taking the wee-wee”. EU261 needs an overhaul – it need to do what was intended.

[JDB]

@lhar – it is highly unlikely we will see any 261 overhaul. We are unlikely to go it alone in any significant manner and the EU has recently updated the legislation with almost all consumer, national government and airline wishes ignored as there was no way of getting consensus with 27 countries for anything radical.

While you imply you don’t like the way the law currently stands/operates, it remains incredibly generous and in this country we are lucky to have free arbitration for a great many airlines or cheap and relatively simple recourse to the courts in a way you won’t find in that many European countries.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

We also have an incredibly generous statue of limitations on claims – 6 years.

Some nations have a year or less!

(This was because the EU left enforcement to individual nations using their own laws).

[Ihar]

JDB wrote:

it remains incredibly generous and in this country we are lucky to have free arbitration for a great many airlines or cheap and relatively simple recourse to the courts in a way you won’t find in that many European countries.

Do I claim – yes. Do I feel good about it – sometimes. Airlines need to be held to account for delivering a good service and respecting their customers, but I think that should be limited to “ticket cost + fixed compensation” rather than a flat fee where the compensation can be 10x the ticket cost (for low-cost airlines). I’d also like higher compensation for F/J 😉

I find it quite absurd that a plane goes “tech” and compensation window opens.

[memesweeper]

@lhar – my dissatisfaction at missing a meeting because my flight from London to Belfast isn’t somehow ameliorated by having been sold a super cheap ticket in the first place because ( and probably super cheap because Mr LCC wanted to gouge me on largely unavoidable fees for drinks, cabin baggage, turning on the overhead ventilation etc)

The “damage” to the customer is the same irrespective of what was spent on the flight, and IMHO the compensation should also be unrelated. If artificially low fares are increased as a result that’s very good news as far as I’m concerned.

[Ihar]

memesweeper wrote:

@lhar – my dissatisfaction at missing a meeting because my flight from London to Belfast isn’t somehow ameliorated by having been sold a super cheap ticket in the first place because ( and probably super cheap because Mr LCC wanted to gouge me on largely unavoidable fees for drinks, cabin baggage, turning on the overhead ventilation etc)

The “damage” to the customer is the same irrespective of what was spent on the flight, and IMHO the compensation should also be unrelated. If artificially low fares are increased as a result that’s very good news as far as I’m concerned.

I think you’ve just sunk your own argument. As you say, the “damage” to the customer isn’t the same. Some get paid £2k a day, and others £100 – on the same flight. How shall be compensate them??

I think the “in airport” compensation should be massively increased, so you can enjoy being delayed. Compensation should otherwise be related to ticket price as parts of eu261 do.

[TGLoyalty]

Disagree. What it’s trying to do is make everyone’s delay equal. Otherwise you start getting into revenue management and only looking after those that paid most.

Linking it to ticket price would mean no one gets much compo at all for flights in the EU and that would undo what the legislation is trying to achieve which is punctual service.

[Ihar]

TGLoyalty wrote:

Disagree. What it’s trying to do is make everyone’s delay equal.

Yes, but it isn’t. If you’ve got status you can get someone kicked from the flight. If you’re F/J you’ll be guaranteed an economy seat. A £500 Econ ticket isn’t the same as a £100 ticket – someone has bought Y as they need to get somewhere NOW.

Last time I checked airplane travel wasn’t based on communism 😁