BAPP Amex advice – screwed over 70k Avios due to wrong advice

[Flying fella]

Before applying for the BAPP for the 70k avios, i contacted Amex via chat to confirm eligibility and they did, also ‘confirming’ that i did not own any BA card in the past 24 months.

Applied, got the card and couldn’t see the tracking of spend towards 70k avios in the app. Via chat, asked why. Was told i did indeed own a BA Amex in the last 24 months hence was ineligible for the bonus. They ‘kindly’ gave 5000 avios as an apology for the incorrect advice and were unable to provide the 70k since i did not meet the criteria of T&Cs. Suggested i reapply in another 24 months!

I’ve raised a formal complaint. Madness, especially since my 24months anniversary would be on 09Feb23 apparently!

Any advice going forward?

[Carlos]

Flying fella wrote:

Before applying for the BAPP for the 70k avios, i contacted Amex via chat to confirm eligibility and they did, also ‘confirming’ that i did not own any BA card in the past 24 months.

Applied, got the card and couldn’t see the tracking of spend towards 70k avios in the app. Via chat, asked why. Was told i did indeed own a BA Amex in the last 24 months hence was ineligible for the bonus. They ‘kindly’ gave 5000 avios as an apology for the incorrect advice and were unable to provide the 70k since i did not meet the criteria of T&Cs. Suggested i reapply in another 24 months!

I’ve raised a formal complaint. Madness, especially since my 24months anniversary would be on 09Feb23 apparently!

Any advice going forward?

Always keep a note of when you last cancelled on a spreadsheet. Dont apply before 24m if you want the SUB

[Flying fella]

As in any advice/points to make during the complaints process?

Completely agree that from now on I make a note when a card was cancelled.

[NorthernLass]

You’re very unlikely to get anything more from Amex. The Ts and Cs are clear that you need a 24 month gap and their agents are notorious for giving out incorrect information. HFP readers who haven’t kept their own records regularly get caught out and post on here about it, I don’t recall anyone ever posting about getting anything beyond some avios/£100 for being given incorrect advice.

[Scott]

Re “formal” complaint, yeah, that’ll do the trick cos they take them way more seriously then informal complaints.

Best advice is take the goodwill gesture, don’t waste your time with a complaint, accept that you made a mistake and sometimes agents of companies do so too, and move on.

[NorthernLass]

Part of me does wonder whether the agents can really be so uninformed about the terms of the products they manage or whether Amex actively encourages them to mislead people as it’s cheaper for them (for example) to give out 5k avios than 70k and knows that the complainant is stuffed for another 2 years with regard to being eligible for another sign up bonus.

[JDB]

Flying fella wrote:

As in any advice/points to make during the complaints process?

Completely agree that from now on I make a note when a card was cancelled.

While I am very unsympathetic to the idea of churning, now compounded by poor admin how you should frame your complaint depends how far/hard you are prepared to push. The basic aspect of the complaint is that you relied upon an express, unambiguous written representation by an authorised representative of American Express and you subsequently acted, in full reliance upon this statement, to your detriment – a form of estoppel. While you accept than an agent of Amex cannot e.g. give financial advice, nor change the basis of any existing contractual terms, a cardholder must be able to rely upon answers to basic requests for information, particularly where Amex is the exclusive holder of such information. You sought a very simple piece of information that it would be easy to provide. It is notable that it appears Amex did in fact hold the correct information as evidenced by the fact they have identified a different date and applied that to your detriment by depriving you of the SUB. It is unreasonable and unfair (in the sense of FCA Principle 6) to deprive you of a publicly offered benefit by virtue of an undisputed error by an Amex agent. Amex may also have breached Principles 2 and 7 as the firm has failed to act with due skill, care and diligence and has failed properly to communicate properly with you as a customer. You need to write all this out properly with the specific facts, times, dates etc.

By way of remedy, I would give them a choice of either providing you with the 70k SUB on completion of the spend requirement or, at worse, resetting your two year application clock to where it was (i.e. c. 9 Feb 2021). This would put you back into position you were in prior to Amex’s error. The offer of 5,000 Avios, less than a tenth of the amount they have deprived you of, even if you share culpability (do not acknowledge this) is risible.

It is very important before embarking on this that you read the chat very carefully to make sure your question and the agent’s response are unambiguous. [i.e. If you watch The Apprentice – was the asparagus freshly picked?!]

Amex will not be happy, so you need to decide if you care!

[JDB]

While I am very unsympathetic to the idea of churning, now compounded by poor admin how you should frame your complaint depends how far/hard you are prepared to push. The basic aspect of the complaint is that you relied upon an express, unambiguous written representation by an authorised representative of American Express and you subsequently acted, in full reliance upon this statement, to your detriment – a form of estoppel. While you accept than an agent of Amex cannot e.g. give financial advice, nor change the basis of any existing contractual terms, a cardholder must be able to rely upon answers to basic requests for information, particularly where Amex is the exclusive holder of such information. You sought a very simple piece of information that it would be easy to provide. It is notable that it appears Amex did in fact hold the correct information as evidenced by the fact they have identified a different date and applied that to your detriment by depriving you of the SUB. It is unreasonable and unfair (in the sense of FCA Principle 6) to deprive you of a publicly offered benefit by virtue of an undisputed error by an Amex agent. Amex may also have breached Principles 2 and 7 as the firm has failed to act with due skill, care and diligence and has failed properly to communicate properly with you as a customer. You need to write all this out properly with the specific facts, times, dates etc.

By way of remedy, I would give them a choice of either providing you with the 70k SUB on completion of the spend requirement or, at worse, resetting your two application clock to where it was (i.e. c. 9 Feb 2021). This would put you back into position you were in prior to Amex’s error. The offer of 5,000 Avios, even if you share culpability (do not acknowledge this) is risible.

It is very important before embarking on this that you read the chat very carefully to make sure your question and the agent’s response are unambiguous. [i.e. If you watch The Apprentice – was the asparagus freshly picked?!]

Amex will not be happy, so you need to decide if you care!

[alig4th]

JDB wrote:

While I am very unsympathetic to the idea of churning

I’ve been reading this forum for a while and this view you hold comes across very clearly, but what I’ve not been able to understand is why you hold such a strong personal view. Is it simply that “this costs AMEX money so they charge everyone more on average”, or something else?

[JDB]

alig4th wrote:

JDB wrote:

While I am very unsympathetic to the idea of churning

I’ve been reading this forum for a while and this view you hold comes across very clearly, but what I’ve not been able to understand is why you hold such a strong personal view. Is it simply that “this costs AMEX money so they charge everyone more on average”, or something else?

If you don’t understand why I, and many others, might hold this personal view perhaps we come from very different milieux. In addition to the opportunism and grubbiness, yes the cost of customer acquisition is borne by all the more loyal customers and that’s fine if you really are attracting a new customer but to have the same old customers endlessly going past ‘go’ grabbing what they can is unfair on the majority of customers who do the ‘right thing’. To the extent you are supportive of churning, or seeking retentions without any actual intent to close a card, you are fortunate that the practices are still not widespread, even if on HfP it might seem so.

[alig4th]

Clearly we are from different mentalities. I also shop in the sales when available (even if this is seen as “doing the shop out of the RRP”), happily shop around for insurance each year (even if this seems “disloyal”), ask my media supplier to match new-customer offers when my contract is up (even if they are meant “only” for attracting new business) and yes, move my credit cards around for the best deal.

I’m sorry if you see this as “grubby”, but until I see some “loyalty” from the business Vs running the best offers for “new” customers only (yet not closing the “loopholes” – as I’m sure you see them – which if they really cared they would), I see no reason not to try and get the best deals I can for myself.

I may feel differently if I lived on a tiny island where my credit card churning made the local coconut farmer go bust, but given I live in the capitalist UK and AMEX is a multi-billion dollar global corporation, I’m not going to lose any sleep about getting an extra 20k MR (that they’re willingly offering me) from AMEX for signing up to a second card.

[JDB]

@alig4th shopping around is something totally different, but I’m sure you realise that! Let’s say churning and fake retentions are more the sort of stuff I would expect from Boris.

[alig4th]

JDB wrote:

@alig4th shopping around is something totally different, but I’m sure you realise that! Let’s say churning and fake retentions are more the sort of stuff I would expect from Boris.

Ok. I still don’t see your point (or how your reference to Boris makes any sense in this context), and I’d really like to have a proper, sensible, reasonable discussion with you (or someone of you viewpoint) face to face at some point, but a backwards and forwards via impersonal forum posts are definitely not the way to explore these sorts of things fully. So I’ll accept you have the opinions you do (as you, no doubt, will accept that I have mine) without taking any personal offence at how we choose to lead our lives

[Flying fella]

UPDATE:

Took awhile since there was a delay in their part due to a ‘technical error when raising the complaint’.
Funny that, its almost as if 21Feb wasn’t the deadline to be eligible for the 70k avios welcome offer.

Anyway, they offered 20k avios as a result of the complaint delay and the incorrect details originally provided. I accepted (of course) since its better than the original 5k avios offer and a lesson learnt to track these things better myself.

Whilst disappointed that they didn’t reset the 2 year application clock and that I missed the 70k avios offer, Im glad I pushed for the complaint nonetheless.

[louie]

JDB wrote:

While I am very unsympathetic to the idea of churning…

I used to feel the same, at least sort of, in that I viewed “the deal” as I get xxx MR points (or whatever) in return for paying an annual fee and it seemed to me unsporting to close a card before the year was up and get a refund. Then Amex completely screwed me over which cost me something like 250K SQ miles; now I take pleasure in costing them money! And examples such as this where Amex have failed a customer and then refused to put things right justifies that approach in my mind.

As an aside, it never ceases to amaze me how many people here and on FT think it is OK for a business not to take any responsibility for the advice given by their employees – “you should have known they don’t know what they are talking about”. No, they should make sure they train their staff properly or live with the consequences of choosing not to do so. When I ran a business and one of my employees made a boob, we made sure it was sorted, no ifs or buts.