Cancelled flight SYD – LON – Compensation?

[BigTimeCharley]

Hi All,

I was due to fly from SYD – LON on 13 sept. Early morning 12 Sept I received a text from BA saying we apologize for the delay to your flight. I check the BA app to my horror see my flight is cancelled and there is no BA metal flying with availability until Monday (This is relevant as flights were booked on a companion voucher).

Within around 20 minutes I received an email with new flight details now flying with Singapore Airlines (Actually only 20 mins later than original planned departure time). Prebooked seats are already refunded on the original booking however was not able to prebook Extra Legroom on SQ as it was already sold out. There was an additional 2 hour delay on the connecting flight due to late departing flight from BNE to meet the SIN LHR leg of the trip.

Long story short, I was overall pleased with the outcome however is it worth trying to obtain any sort of compensation as it was not on BA aircraft or any OW partner? I’m not too worried but is it a case of if you don’t ask you don’t get sort of situation?

Side note – I was very surprised at how good the economy product on SQ was.

[TGLoyalty]

You don’t say how late you were getting to your final destination airport vs the original arrival time?

As it’s an Avios booking ORC is irrelevant as no TP or Avios earning is due. You were pleased with your flight so not really anything to be compensated for is there unless you were really late into LHR.

[Lady London]

@BigTimeCharley I’d say you were very fortunate and this was an excellent handling, probably by the Australian end as the cancellation was so close to your flight, by BA’s Australian departure handlers.

There are 2 airlines to fly that route on if you have to do it in Economy and one of them is not BA but Singapore Airlines is. So I would say you have had an exceptionally fortunate experience.

If you were very very late landing in London due to the misconnect (over 5 hours) then if you were flying on a flight operated by BA then a compensation claim could be worth looking into depending on the reason for lateness on a flight operated by BA.

But by then you were on a flight operated by SQ which technically is not subject to EU261/its UK copy, unless *departing* Europe/UK. Does not work for non-Eur/non-UK airlines in the other direction.

If one really wanted to spend lots of time and establish legal history and the landing delay was over 5 hours at LHR, and if you were sure the reasons for the delay were not exceptional then I’m guessing you’d have to make some argument such as BA being vicariously liable having cancelled their own flight and subbed you onto SQ… really not worth doing as it would surely end up pushed beyond MCOL/County Court level to a higher Court on an appeal by BA – even if you could win (unlikely).

I would just be grateful that thanks to BA action you ended up flying that route on an excellent airline 🙂 . Lucky you.

[meta]

@LadyLondon Regulations state for journeys over 3500km it’s 4-hours delay, not 5 for delay compensation.

[Lady London]

Cheers @meta

[TGLoyalty]

Surely the important bit is the arrival time on the original airline ticket with the EU/UK carrier ie BA. Not the route they then sent the OP on otherwise this would be a get out of jail free card for all EU/UK airlines.

Flyertalk thread suggest “As posted earlier in the thread, the outbound LHR-SIN-SYD flight on the 11th went tech with a fuel pump issue and so the flight was cancelled, meaning no aircraft was in SYD to operate the return SYD-SIN-LHR leg on the 13th.”

TECY – Fuel pump issue was the reason code.

Is that considered extraordinary or not for the return leg from such a far flung destination … no idea.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

@TGIloyalty The important thing is the difference between the scheduled and actual arrival times of the flights.

Moving people to other flights isn’t some get out of jail free card.

It’s EXACTLY how the regulation is designed to work and get passengers home asap. Airlines pay each other when rebooks happen so isn’t free (but equally they aren’t paying full fare walk up prices either)

The Y at the end of TECY indicated that compensation is payable.

BUT only if the passenger was also delayed sufficiently to meet the delay requirements.

[meta]

Yes, by accepting a re-route on non-EU/UK airlines, you also give up your EU261 rights (and UK equivalent).

[Garethgerry]

meta wrote:

Yes, by accepting a re-route on non-EU/UK airlines, you also give up your EU261 rights (and UK equivalent).

As the original airline doesn’t BA keep some responsibility. I’d have thought if the scheduled SQ was scheduled to be more than 4 hours later than booked trip BA by moving you onto this is responsible for compensation.

If SQ was late and eventually arrived more than 4 hours late has anyone tested that moving you to a non EU or non UK airline is a get out of jail free card for original airline’s responsibilities.

[meta]

No, it’s the operating airline responsibility only for EC261 and UK equivalent. As soon as you are offered and choose one of the three options based on Article 8, original airline has no further obligations. See Interprative guidelines. Any new rights will apply to to the new flight as per regulation. So if it’s non-EU airline then no rights.

They also have not right to cancellation compensation because of Article 5c.iii.

You can refuse a re-route on non-EU airline if there are reasonable alternatives.

I know a case that was rejected at MCOL that I advised against, but a friend of a friend still went ahead. Lucky for him that they didn’t award BA’s legal costs!

[Ihar]

Utter tosh. (IMHO). EU261 relates to your original flights/contract. The contract is still there, no matter what substitute metal they use.

What matters is the delay to your final destination.

[Garethgerry]

Perhaps if it happens to me I’ll ask CAA for an opinion.

[Garethgerry]

I’ve just asked CAA for opion

[JDB]

Garethgerry wrote:

Perhaps if it happens to me I’ll ask CAA for an opinion.

Good luck with that! I’m also sure why it’s necessary to ask for an opinion they are unlikely to give (and would need detailed facts for it to help anyway) when there are already cases on this topic.

[meta]

@Ihar And your Contract (Conditions of Carriage) does not include EC261 (or UK equivalent) rights. The contract of carriage is guided by amongst others Montreal Convention which is entirely different.

Your passenger rights (EC261) and contract rights are entirely separate thing. Please also read 9b of BA’s General Conditions of Carriage paying particular attention to remedies to see how it differs.

It is absolutely clear from the EC261 legislation that it only applies to operating carrier.

(7) In order to ensure the effective application of this Regulation, the obligations that it creates should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight, whether with owned aircraft, under dry or wet lease, or on any other basis.

Flights Sydney to London were regularly scheduled flight by Singapore Airlines who did not operate it on behalf of BA on any basis. The clue is in the fact that a new ticket was issued.

You are all confusing this because if the flight was in the reverse (Lon-Syd) then EC261 (and UK equivalent) would apply.

[AJA]

I take a different view. The original flight was initially delayed but ultimately cancelled.

Therefore OP is potentially entitled to compensation unless per Article 5 Paragraph 1 c (iii)

” they are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival.”

The question is was the original re-route on SQ supposed to arrive within 2 hours of the original BA flight? If so then no compensation is applicable. If it was scheduled to arrive more than 2 hours later then compensation is due.

[meta]

@AJA You omitted

c) have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless:

i. ii. and then iii you quoted

And as OP said it was scheduled to depart within 20 minutes of BA flight.

In any case, the moment you accept anything under Article 8, original airline has not further obligation in terms of new flights.

[AJA]

The actual delayed arrival is irrelevant as it is on a non-EU/UK airline so outside the scope for selay compensation.

If they had rerouted onto another BA operated flight then that would have had separate UK261 protection attached so potentially then actual delayed arrival greater than 4 hours vs scheduled arruval might have had success as a separate claim.

[AJA]

@Meta The operating carrier which cancelled the original flight was BA so cancellation compensation on that original flight applies unless per my post above the reroute on SQ was scheduled to arrive within 2 hours of the cancelled BA flight.

SQ itself is not in scope for delay compensation but BA is still potentially in scope for the original cancelled flight

[meta]

But they didn’t re-route on another BA operated flight, that’s the key.

[TGLoyalty]

@meta back to my point so you are arguing that BA choosing a none BA flight to re route people is a get out of jail free card for the new flight not meeting the original 4 hour threshold?

Btw to be very clear I was talking about compensation vs the ORIGINAL reroute timing. OP said it took off 20 mins later but never said when it meant to land in LHR if it was +4 hrs it has to be eligible for compensation.

Obviously if it was meant to land within 4 hours of the OPs original flight it doesn’t matter what subsequently happened as they didn’t operate the flight.

[meta]

@TGLoyalty Yes and I’ve been saying this since I started posting here. Nothing new.

OP said the following “ with new flight details now flying with Singapore Airlines (Actually only 20 mins later than original planned departure time)”

[meta]

It’s also not a get out of jail card. You can refuse re-route if it doesn’t suit you and it’s reasonable.

[AJA]

@Meta you wrote
“But they didn’t re-route on another BA operated flight, that’s the key.”

That is not necessarily an issue.

The key for whether cancellation compensation for the original flight is payable is if the re-routing (which doesn’t have to be another BA flight) either departs more than one hour before or arrives more than two hours later than the original flight schedule. Per Article 5 Paragraph 1 c (iii)

In this case the accepted reroute on SQ departed 20 minutes after the original flight so it all depends upon whether the scheduled arrival was supposed to ve within two hours of the original BA flight. The actual arrival time is irrelevant.

[meta]

Some common sense needed obviously a flight that has scheduled departure 20 minutes later from the same airport cannot have a scheduled arrival of more than 2 hours and that is even with extra time built in by the airlines.

It’s absolutely all about the fact that it’s a re-route on non-EU airline.