Involuntary downgrade calculation help please

[LondonFly]

I was due to fly on Virgin in premium. Originally booked with points for 9000 virgin points in economy, and when a 40% points reduction was on offer and a premium seat was available for 9600 points instead of 16000, I was able to add 600 points to fly in premium.
The virgin flight was cancelled and they rerouted me on a different airline but only economy seats were available.
Post flight I put in a claim for the downgrade and Virgin offered to refund me the 600 points I added from economy to premium + the difference in extra taxes I paid.
Is this correct? Am I only due the difference in economy to premium?
Or am I due 75% of 9600 or 16000 points? and 75% of the total amount of cash I paid in taxes?
Do the rules for downgrade once rerouted on different airline differ?
Many thanks

[slidey]

When you ‘added’ 600 points, does your points transaction history show the original 9000 points being re-credited to your account and then 9600 deducted? If so, I’d say 75% of 9600 and 75% of the fees. If you paid $50 to change the booking from econ to prem, I’d be asking for that back too.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

The calculation – assuming this is a long haul flight – is 75% of the price paid for the downgraded sector – in this case that is 75% of 9,600 points and the cash element as well but excluding any specifically identified proper taxes and airport fees.

If this was an ex UK leg and APD was charged separately then the difference between the two rates is also refunded

The upgrade fee isn’t included as that is a fee for providing a service – processing the upgrade – and that service was provided.

[LondonFly]

Yes, the 9000 were recredited to my account and the 9600 were deducted.
I did not pay a fee to change the booking
It was a long haul flight
This was for a party of 6 so it’s all x 6

slidey wrote:

When you ‘added’ 600 points, does your points transaction history show the original 9000 points being re-credited to your account and then 9600 deducted? If so, I’d say 75% of 9600 and 75% of the fees. If you paid $50 to change the booking from econ to prem, I’d be asking for that back too.

BA Flyer IHG Stayer wrote:

The calculation – assuming this is a long haul flight – is 75% of the price paid for the downgraded sector – in this case that is 75% of 9,600 points and the cash element as well but excluding any specifically identified proper taxes and airport fees.

If this was an ex UK leg and APD was charged separately then the difference between the two rates is also refunded

The upgrade fee isn’t included as that is a fee for providing a service – processing the upgrade – and that service was provided.

[TGLoyalty]

Yep all x6

Cheeky of them as you would’ve got 40% off the eco fare too so the diff is still 4,200 miles each.

This also reminds me how cheap PE redemptions can actually be … 16k miles vs probably double that if not more for J

[LondonFly]

Virgin have responded. They have rejected my claim with the below;

“If I may explain, the 600 Virgin Points credited is per person and were the original points used to upgrade to Premium. Any difference in taxes will also e refunded to you.
With regards to the 75% refund, this does apply to customers who are involuntarily downgraded in the event of an oversales. As this was a flight cancellation, and you opted to travel on the next flight in Economy, sadly this would not apply”

Are they fobbing me off?
I was abroad and I needed a way home when they cancelled my flight. After a fight, they agreed to reroute me on a different airline when I told them that there were seats. As there were no premium seats available, I had no choice but to take economy so we could get home.
What should I do now?

[yonasl]

The regulation says:

Article 10
Upgrading and downgrading
1.
If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment.
2.
If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse
(a)30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less, or
(b)50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres, or
(c)75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.

As you can see there is no “you have the right to this or that depending on …”

Virgin are fobbing you off. Whatever you paid (points, money, etc.) you are owed 75% (on the cash bit there is a little bit of math due to the taxes).

[JDB]

@LondonFly – what Virgin is saying (and I don’t know if it is correct in the specific circumstances of your trip) is that you elected to travel in economy which is slightly supported by your comment “I had no choice…” with the implication that you might have been offered another option in a higher class, albeit one that didn’t suit you. Once the downgrade becomes voluntary (which is Virgin’s argument) you fall back on the difference in fares rather than the 75% reimbursement.

In response to your question “what should I do now?” that depends on how it went down. If you can evidence the fact that your downgrade was entirely involuntary then I would write in the first instance to Virgin’s executive office setting out your case and if this fails escalate to AviationADR but as I say, if there’s a hint this was a voluntary election, you may not succeed.

[Matt]

The bit about it’s cancellation not over sales is nonsense – downgrade reimbursement applies to both.

If they offered you a flight in Premium that day, or maybe the next day, but you chose economy instead then that would be your choice and they’d be correct. If they offered you nothing, or a multi-day wait for Premium then you are correct.

[yonasl]

Basically:

– Your flight was cancelled so your rights kick in 1) rerouting/refund/voucher 2) compensation

– Virgin could put you in a flight the day/week/month after but instead offered (or you picked for any reason) one where Economy was the only choice hence you were downgraded (this is simply because you bought Premium and flew economy … how you got there is not being discussed and the regulation doesn’t care how you ended up there).

– So going back to the first point. Did you arrive on time etc. YES –> No rights to COMPENSATION

– However, did you flight on the same class. NO therefore your downgrade rights kick in.

Remember in case of cancellation your rights are:

(b)re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c)re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience, subject to availability of seats.

You did not get (b) as you were downgraded.

Virgin cannot say “well we solved the cancellation by putting you in economy” and wash their hands from paying what they owe you (you had a Premium ticket and instead flew Economy so are due a refund … what that refund should be is clearly stated on the UK261 legislation THE REASONS FOR THE DOWNGRADE ARE IRRELEVANT.

[yonasl]

If Virgin does not pay as they must you need to escalate your complaint here: https://www.aviationadr.org.uk/

You first need to moan with Virgin and give them 8 weeks to reply and provide a final answer.

[JDB]

@yonasi – it all depends on the full facts/circumstances that we don’t have as I and @Matt have highlighted above. These things are rarely quite as black and white as suggested.

[LondonFly]

JDB wrote:

@yonasi – it all depends on the full facts/circumstances that we don’t have as I and @Matt have highlighted above. These things are rarely quite as black and white as suggested.

The facts are the following;
Virgin cancelled my flight home whilst I was already abroad on holiday. The flight was scheduled for September 6. It was more than 14 days when they cancelled.
I called virgin. They may have offered any flight on Virgin after September 25 which was the earliest they were resuming flights. They did not offer an alternative flight on a different airline. The September 25 was totally impractical for work and schools. They only offered a refund. After standing my ground, they finally agreed to put me on a different airline which was flying on September 6. They did not offer the same class of travel at any point and as mentioned only offered a refund

[JDB]

@LondonFly – I’m not sure I would be able to make a determination even with the additional information provided. If you think you have been incorrectly treated, you need to set out your case and escalate to Virgin’s Executive Office and see if you can persuade them and if not, then file a claim at AviationADR.

I’m taking it that the route in question is TLV where ordinarily Israeli law might offer greater protections, but here it doesn’t. There is some question of temporality in UK261 downgrading cases although other posters here will dispute that. While ‘extraordinary circumstances’ don’t apply in downgrading cases, if I were Virgin I would be exploiting the circumstances that have led to their route suspension, the temporality and the fact that no other airline currently operating ?? offers premium economy on this route. Then they would play on the voluntary nature of your choice (although waiting weeks until their maybe route resumption can’t be classed as reasonable) vs their inability to book you in premium and no legal obligation to put you in a higher class instead.

I don’t know how this will all pan out but hopefully it will assist the framing of your claim if you know what they might throw at you. In your favour is that they are quite thick.

[yonasl]

@JDB the concept of “extraordinary circumstances” deals with COMPENSATION. Refunds for downgrades or paying for hotels/food (right to care) are not part of that.

If you buy a business class/premium ticket but end up flying economy there is a process to compute the refund for that (specially as it is due to a cancelation).

I will put it to you otherwise. If I buy a £3,000 business class ticket for a flight in Dec 1st and a month after day BA calls and says “sorry we do not have J class anymore, putting you on a Y class flight back” … how do you compute the refund”? Is it what you would have paid in economy back when you bought the ticket or the price of Y now vs. the J price now? or what you paid? etc. It will indeed be a mess. That is why the regulation is so clear –> Refund 75% of the cost back

In this case the airline thinks they can get away because they see a Y price and an additional payment to upgrade to PE. They refund the upgrade and that’s it. Obviously it is now for the ADR to resolve that but I will stick to the fact the OP bought a PE ticket for X miles and Y cash and instead flew economy –> 75% refund due.

[JDB]

yonasl wrote:

@JDB the concept of “extraordinary circumstances” deals with COMPENSATION. Refunds for downgrades or paying for hotels/food (right to care) are not part of that.

@yonasi – How does that differ from what I wrote above – “While ‘extraordinary circumstances’ don’t apply in downgrading cases…”?

I don’t agree with your analysis, but that’s what creates jobs for ADR and judges! You need to look at the very specific circumstances of each case and not apply some standardised template.

[LondonFly]

Just a follow up on this.

Virgin sent me the following(from customer care);

“Thanks for your response. I hope you’re well.
I have reviewed you query with a senior member of staff and have credited the 43,200 points in total to the account used to make the booking.
I have also requested a refund of 75% of the taxes, this will be processed by our refunds team within the next 14 working days. They will email directly once this has been processed.
I’m so sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused and for the back and forth.
I’m glad this has now been resolved and hoe we can welcome you onboard again soon.”

43200 in my account already. 9600 x 0.75 = 7200 X 6 – 43200

Well played Virgin