LCY expansion opposition

[BBbetter]

@jj, all those were possible not to the credit of airlines, but to the competition among them.

Same with most other industries – more competition, better services.

UK govts seem to suffer from inertia on a long term plan for railways.

[Londonsteve]

jj wrote:

To get to Vienna, I need to change in Cardiff, Paddington, St Pancras, Brussels and Frankfurt – six trains, any of which could be delayed. With luggage. I can’t buy a through ticket, and some of the trips aren’t available for sale until the cheap tickets have sold on the other legs. And it still costs me £400 to get to Paddington.

Or I drive to Heathrow or Bristol and fly direct.

Which is better. Erm, let me think…

With respect, I don’t think you’ve grasped the points I’ve made. An Interrail pass includes all your domestic train travel on departure and arrival days if you’re a UK resident, so your expensive rail fare to London is cancelled entirely. it sounds like the Interrail pass would actually be cheaper all the way to Vienna than just what you’re paying GWR to get to London, yet it would also include all the train journeys you undertake, UK and abroad during the 4 day validity period, midnight to midnight! I don’t think you can fly to Vienna from Bristol but I might be wrong. Clearly if you can (invariably it’ll be with someone like Easyjet) the cost of the train to Bristol and the airfare on a low-cost carrier is very likely to be cheaper than going by rail. If you have to first travel to London to then fly to Vienna, the economics of train fare + air fare mean that the train not just becomes a viable, comfortable option, it’s also significantly cheaper.

Interrail passes are completely flexible so you don’t need to worry about trains being delayed as you can instantly reroute on another service at no cost to you, which isn’t the case if you’re booked a series of tickets that are non-amendable, non-refundable in the cheapest booking category.

The complexity of getting to London in your personal circumstances isn’t relevant as you need to get to London anyway in order to fly to Vienna, and at great expense if you’re flying, whereas it would be effectively for free if you travelled with an Interrail pass.

[Londonsteve]

jj wrote:

To be competitive for me, international trains need to consistently offer:

– through ticketing from a well-known, reputable portal
– tickets sales up to 12 months in advance
– regional connections that don’t rely on big city terminals and underground/metro systems
– checked baggage services including connections
– first class accommodation including quality food and lounges on all key services
– clean, well-maintained station environments with good security and prompt removal of drunk, drugged or otherwise disruptive people
– English language customer services readily available to assist with missed connections, etc
– safe, pleasant hotel facilities close to stations for overnight stops
– prices comparable with air fares
– reserved seating that actually works on most journeys (unlike GWR)
– far fewer cancellations, delays and shortened trains than we currently experience

I think you’ll find that train travel in most of Europe ticks all those requirement and in some areas it exceeds your expectations, other than being able to check baggage through to your destination, but if the connections are easy and go from the same station, it’s not a big job to move luggage from one train to the next and it comes without the downside of your luggage potentially getting lost in transit. Addressing your point about ticketing, yes, it’s easy to buy through tickets with protected transfers but for most travellers the Interrail pass usually represents the better option and it’s an unlimited pass so you can can hop on and off at will while reservations for intercity/long distance trains are easily accomplished online for as little as 2 Euros per train. It’s the ultimate through ticket. Seeing is believing, I genuinely think too many people think that train travel on the continent is much like it is in the UK with its often hideously expensive fares and lack of comfort.

Since I’m a non-UK resident, I can use an Interrail pass in the uK without limit, which is a great pleasure knowing what the train tickets would have otherwise cost. It’s actually cheaper to buy an Interrail pass if you’re a UK resident and burn the outbound and return days just for domestic rail travel than to pay public prices for peak time trains to London departing from places like Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, et al. Ludicrous but true.

[jj]

@Londonsteve, you’re thinking like a Londoner.

From my perspective, getting to/from St Pancras on multiple trains with heavy baggage is a logistical nightmare, especially late evening, early morning or on weekends where trains are much less frequent. Alternatively, I can drive in comfort to Heathrow in 2.5 hours, drop my car in the short stay car park and stroll to the check-in desk where I’m immediately relieved of my heavy luggage.

If I could easily drive to St Pancras and cost-effectively park somewhere where I could wheel my bags to the train, the equation might be different. The problem is that central London stations just don’t work well for us provincials.

[Londonsteve]

Fair point but that’s changing the goalposts. There wasn’t mention of driving to London previously. Clearly it’s much cheaper to drive to London than to take the train in most circumstances, assuming you can find decent value airport parking or you’re not away for a long time.

In my case that wouldn’t be an option as I don’t own a car anymore.

You can’t beat Interrail on price however by driving and parking, as the journey to London is free! But yes, if the connections don’t work then understandably you’ll choose an option that does.

[jj]

@Londonsteve, I think we now understand where the other is coming from. Things look very different when viewed through provincial and metropolitan lenses. Eurostar just doesn’t work if you live in Wales. I can see why it’s great for you, though.

But I didn’t change the goalposts – I previously said that trains need “regional connections that don’t rely on big city terminals and underground/metro systems.” That was meant to be in contrast with airports which expect people to arrive by car.

[CJD]

Andrew. wrote:

jj wrote:

Rather than obstructing flying, it might be better to understand why people choose not to use trains. Without pressure from flights, rail services would be even more expensive and of poorer quality than they already are.

Some of it is down to timing. I can generally book flights 11 months in advance. I can generally book a long-distance train 90 days in advance.

If I miss the last connecting bus/tram + train from the airport, I can get a family member to collect me from GLA or EDI really easily.
If I miss the last connecting train at Waverley or Queen Street, it’s a nightmare of journey to reach the stations through a jungle of LEZ, ZEZ, LTNs, bus gates and so forth.

Queen Street is in the LEZ, but unless whoever is coming to get you is driving in a clapped out old banger that shouldn’t be an issue for them.

[Londonsteve]

jj wrote:

I previously said that trains need “regional connections that don’t rely on big city terminals and underground/metro systems.”

I’m not sure what this means though. Trains will always travels from the regions to city centre termini where you can change trains. Is it not convenient to arrive at Brussels Midi and change platforms to catch the next train? I understand that Paddington to StP is annoying with luggage but unfortunately London hasn’t historically invested in a proper city centre railway station with through services, London Bridge is the nearest thing we have. This aspect is however no different from arriving at Paddington and having to then travel to Luton airport, or even just LHR by backtracking with the Elizabeth line or HEX.

I totally understand your perspective though and do consider myself fortunate that in London I can jump straight onto a Eurostar and be in Brussels or Paris two hours later, not having to go to battle with UK rail, even if the journey might be included in the pass.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

I spent the night at the CP Docklands and If I wasn’t already awake the first LCY departure this morning at 7am would certainly have woke me up so I feel for the local residents and their noise concerns.

[BBbetter]

Whoever thought early morning flights are ok, but afternoon and evening ones are not should have their head examined.