LCY expansion opposition

[Londonsteve]

PeteM wrote:

This went off topic more than usual 🤣

Apologies for that! There was a nexus as the article quoted was about replacing LCY flights with train journeys and this would indeed be viable with lower prices and a greater array of direct services. I’m agnostic about LCY expansion, aviation obviously has its place and some people will prefer the much quicker journey times. LCY has the benefit of minimising the ‘wasted’ time in transit through the airport facilitating a full day in London (or the destination city) while still being able to return in time for bed! Clearly there is a market for that compared to a 3-6 hour rail journey.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

And it will likely rapidly fail.

They would need to demonstrate a major flaw in the decision making process such that it renders the decision invalid or that the decision is perverse in the face of the evidence provided to Ministers.

Here there was a public planning inquiry and a report by two independent planning inspectors.

Ministers have accepted the inspectors recommendations and not substituted their own decisions and opinions.

Not liking the decision isn’t enough to win a JR.

[TGLoyalty]

Complete nonsense the council needs to understand their “opinions” rather than facts on why things shouldn’t happen in their back yard are stifling growth.

It’s the same all over the country with councils making planning decisions based on a few councillors whims or own private interests rather than being objective.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

Richie wrote:

Looks like BACF’s E190s don’t qualify as quieter aircraft, but the A221 and E190-E2 do.

So seems this isn’t great news for BACF.

Only in terms in not being able to bid for and operate one of the 3 additional early morning flights (between 06.30 and 06.59j

I’m sure they’ll manage to cope with that.

[jj]

Rather than obstructing flying, it might be better to understand why people choose not to use trains. Without pressure from flights, rail services would be even more expensive and of poorer quality than they already are.

[Richie]

BACF already has a 6:55 am LCY-ZRH flight, it’ll be interesting to see if Helvetic/Swiss decide to bother competing with their quieter planes.

[NigelHamilton]

You can get a flexible, first class return to anywhere in Central or Eastern Europe on the train, travelling on four days in 10, including the UK leg if you don’t live in London, and the Eurostar for under £400 even in peak summer. It’s cheaper still if you are under 27.

[TGLoyalty]

You can get a flight cheaper than £400 and probably far faster end to end. Even if you include the sitting around before your flight

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

jj wrote:

Rather than obstructing flying, it might be better to understand why people choose not to use trains. Without pressure from flights, rail services would be even more expensive and of poorer quality than they already are.

I’ve given my reasons up thread for not using the train when going to AMS. 6+ hours is simply not practical for me

Checked the prices for next January and standard premier is £ 100 less that BA CE ex LCY

[NigelHamilton]

While that is of course true, it’s probably not a business class flight, nor £76 for a child. Nor as sustainable. But the main reason to take the train is it’s just far more enjoyable than flying, particularly in Europe.

[Londonsteve]

NigelHamilton wrote:

it’s just far more enjoyable than flying, particularly in Europe.

Hear hear. I’d like to use the train to go London-Budapest even though it’s a long journey. Only 3 changes with an hour between services and it fits into one calendar day. The sole sticking point is finding the affordable Eurostar to Brussels!

Brussels to Budapest is reliably 66 Euros booked a week in advance even now in August and for that you travel on DB ICE services as far as Vienna followed by a Eurocity service Vienna-Budapest. A screaming bargain even compared to an LCC once you’ve factored in fees for extras including checked luggage. Yes it’s long, but so much more interesting, better for the environment and with a real sense of travelling and seeing the change in landscape.

[Londonsteve]

TGLoyalty wrote:

You can get a flight cheaper than £400 and probably far faster end to end. Even if you include the sitting around before your flight

£400 misrepresents the price as this is for a 1st class Interrail. You can save a lot by going second class. I think the point he was making is that your travel within Europe needn’t ever cost more than the cost of a 2nd class Interrail pass, even during peak season when flight prices to popular destinations can be sky high, even when booked months in advance.

A lot of people assume that travelling by train takes forever but it’s remarkable where you can get to from London in time for dinner. Prague, Munich, Vienna, Nice, Milan no problem. The Interrail pass conveniently neutralises the expensive Eurostar price for a flat 30 Euros booking fee each way, but, you have to want to use 4 days of rail travel in a month, it doesn’t work if all you need is 1 or 2 days.

[TGLoyalty]

I know it’s for first class as OP said that. I’ve paid less for business flights per person. Granted not £76 for children. And when you say in time for dinner are you leaving at 3pm or 10am?

And each to their own but if it’s about point to point I’m not spending a day to travel to Budapest etc

I imagine it is far more enjoyable than euro connections and/or if you’re travelling around.

[jj]

For many of us, trains are simply too expensive and too inconvenient. I catch the train to London as I have no alternative – and, knowing I have no alternative, GWR sets its First Class prices at £400 return for 150 miles each way. That’s with no food beyond a bag of crisps, instant coffee and no alcohol. If short haul flying were restricted, I suspect that Eurostar prices would go through the roof.

Besides pricing, how do I get from Wales to, say Vienna, on a train. How many cross-city changes do I need to make taking heavy suitcases on underground systems? Until direct trains become as common as direct flights, trains will never be first choice for most people.

[Ant M]

NigelHamilton wrote:

While that is of course true, it’s probably not a business class flight, nor £76 for a child. Nor as sustainable. But the main reason to take the train is it’s just far more enjoyable than flying, particularly in Europe.

When time isn’t a limiting factor then the train is more enjoyable in my opinion – I travelled across the US by train and thoroughly enjoyed it. But when you’ve only got a limited amount of time off work then flying is the option that gives more time at the destination, more so the further you go from the uk. There are argument for rail and for air and having the choice is good.

[Londonsteve]

jj wrote:

Besides pricing, how do I get from Wales to, say Vienna, on a train. How many cross-city changes do I need to make taking heavy suitcases on underground systems?

Err, only the one between Paddington and St. Pancras International! Thereafter it’s a change at Brussels Midi, the same station the Eurostar uses and another at Frankfurt airport station. It might even use the same platform, then you’re on a direct high speed service to Vienna! Probably less walking involved than the transit through the departure and arrival airport, not to mention you’ve still got to get to a London airport for your departure.

UK rail prices have nothing in common with the usual prices for European train tickets. As mentioned above, Brussels to Budapest is 66 Euros (can be even cheaper if booked far in advance). That’s a massive distance for the price.

[Londonsteve]

TGLoyalty wrote:

I’ve paid less for business flights per person

A 4 days in 1 month period flexi pass is 283 Euros with up to 2 children per adult under 12 for free. Effectively this is the maximum price anyone ever has to pay, subject to the 30 Euro p/p Eurostar reservation fee and any other seat reservations during the journey. Price is the same even at the last minute in the peak season. 4 days gets you largely anywhere in Europe and back again, even southern Italy or north of the Arctic Circle.

1st class is 359 Euros and up to 2 children under 12 for free. BA Club Europe eat your heart out 🙂

[jj]

@Londonsteve, I’d love to take the train for international journeys but it ain’t going to happen any time soon.

To get to Vienna, I need to change in Cardiff, Paddington, St Pancras, Brussels and Frankfurt – six trains, any of which could be delayed. With luggage. I can’t buy a through ticket, and some of the trips aren’t available for sale until the cheap tickets have sold on the other legs. And it still costs me £400 to get to Paddington.

Or I drive to Heathrow or Bristol and fly direct.

Which is better. Erm, let me think…

[PeteM]

I think it really is horses for courses. As much as I love the Eurostar, it’s just often not very practical or efficient. For instance, I can do, with everything going well, my flat in Woolwich to a friend’s in central Amsterdam in around 2hrs via LCY. To get back on the train the other week took 7hrs as there’s no direct trains from Amsterdam at the moment and it was a 2hr wait in Brussels plus the journey home from StP.

I do not expect any competition to Eurostar any time soon – given that SNCF and SNCB own 55.8% and 18.5% of it, respectively, they will do everything they can do thwart any competition, and that’s before all the practical issues highlighted above. And Eurostar are quite happy making loads of money as they are, with as simple an operation as possible.

[AJA]

I’m with you @PeteM Much as I like train travel it really isn’t as practical as flying. Taking the train is useful if you’re just going to Paris or Brussels and are starting off in Central London. But start anywhere else or go to somewhere that requires more than one change of train and it becomes much less practical.

Which debunks the idea of the article. Why would you take 6 hours to get somewhere when you could fly there in less time? The only reason to do so is if you have the time and actually enjoy the train and it costs less money. If however you are time constrained and the aim of travelling is to spend maximum time at the destination then flying usually beats the train.

I am glad to read that LCY’s plans have at least in part been approved.

[Ant M]

jj wrote:

Rather than obstructing flying, it might be better to understand why people choose not to use trains. Without pressure from flights, rail services would be even more expensive and of poorer quality than they already are.

You’re right. It’s typical of local or national government thinking though, not to mention NGOs – penalise people for choosing the option we dont like rather than finding ways to encourage them to take the other option. Look at house building, where planners try and get people to not have cars by insisting devlopers dont include driveways and severely limit parking, whereas instead if they made sure there was a good efficient public transport system that would naturally encourage some people to switch away from cars.

[Andrew.]

jj wrote:

Rather than obstructing flying, it might be better to understand why people choose not to use trains. Without pressure from flights, rail services would be even more expensive and of poorer quality than they already are.

Some of it is down to timing. I can generally book flights 11 months in advance. I can generally book a long-distance train 90 days in advance.

If I miss the last connecting bus/tram + train from the airport, I can get a family member to collect me from GLA or EDI really easily.
If I miss the last connecting train at Waverley or Queen Street, it’s a nightmare of journey to reach the stations through a jungle of LEZ, ZEZ, LTNs, bus gates and so forth.

[jj]

To be competitive for me, international trains need to consistently offer:

– through ticketing from a well-known, reputable portal
– tickets sales up to 12 months in advance
– regional connections that don’t rely on big city terminals and underground/metro systems
– checked baggage services including connections
– first class accommodation including quality food and lounges on all key services
– clean, well-maintained station environments with good security and prompt removal of drunk, drugged or otherwise disruptive people
– English language customer services readily available to assist with missed connections, etc
– safe, pleasant hotel facilities close to stations for overnight stops
– prices comparable with air fares
– reserved seating that actually works on most journeys (unlike GWR)
– far fewer cancellations, delays and shortened trains than we currently experience

That’s a long list that makes you realise just how much the airline industry has achieved compared with its moribund competition.

Maybe politicians should try carrots as well as sticks if they want to achieve net zero.

[PeteM]

jj wrote:

To be competitive for me, international trains need to consistently offer:

– through ticketing from a well-known, reputable portal
– tickets sales up to 12 months in advance
– regional connections that don’t rely on big city terminals and underground/metro systems
– checked baggage services including connections
– first class accommodation including quality food and lounges on all key services
– clean, well-maintained station environments with good security and prompt removal of drunk, drugged or otherwise disruptive people
– English language customer services readily available to assist with missed connections, etc
– safe, pleasant hotel facilities close to stations for overnight stops
– prices compatible with air fares
– reserved seating that actually works on most journeys (unlike GWR)
– far fewer cancellations, delays and shortened trains than we currently experience

That’s a long list that makes you realise just how much the airline industry has achieved compared with its moribund competition.

Maybe politicians should try carrots as well as sticks if they want to achieve net zero.

This really is comparing apples to oranges, isn’t it…

[jj]

@PeteM why is the comparison unfair? Airlines and trains offer competing services. If I’m to switch from one to the other, I need a comparable experience. Currently, trains are a compromise too far for me.