New reward scheme is a massive devaluation by the back door

[techandyuk]

Hmmm definitely feel like this is a huge devaluation.. 2 seats MAN-MCO

Booked UC MAN – MCO next Sept (the day before the scheme change) using Award Voucher (FC Gold) for two = 47,500 points… Great.
Needed to book the return leg Oct, and just been charged 250k (-75k for having half a gold voucher left), been watching it fall from 350k per seat to 125k..

I’ve been checking, hoping it will drop but now other seats are rising up… so needed to grab it before I risk NOT having enough points to actually make the return reservation! Thank goodness I had the extra points a Gold card gives you….

https://travelplus.virginatlantic.com/reward-flight-finder/results/month?origin=MCO&destination=MAN&month=10&year=2025

Seriously considering calling it a day for flying club, as this makes redemptions almost unbookable in advance, now maybe this is what they want since I generally earn points on CC and use them for redemptions, so I’m not really a most ‘loyal’ cash customer in that regard, but I have always been a super Virgin cheerleader… although our last flight MAN>MCO in UC, was just meh – the A350 was already showing signs of wear, food was just so so and I’d agree with Richard – the booth is just a complete waste of space compared with the bar, used entirely by YouTube bloggers – and insta selfie people…

First world problems I know with everything else going on – but just very very disappointed in Virgin’s changes – not really sure this will drive a happy loyal fanbase in the right direction.

[TGLoyalty]

It certainly feels this way but it’s relatively new and the people in charge will be messing with the value proposition until slowly it makes sense.

They’ve done this to appease the revenue side of the business but also to be able to balance reward seat demand and supply vs their cash inventory.

I know they could always do that but it was blunt instrument like everyone gets 50% off etc which meant the routes with really light loads were 50% off but so were the ones which would have sold at full price.

Guess it’s a round about way of saying things will eventually settle down and then we will know if FC is really dead or there’s some sweet spots still.

[Rob]

It’s more simple than that. Unlike BA, Qatar and Finnair, the loyalty team lost the fight with RevMan.

Virgin Red has been told that it can only have seats which are 110% unlikely to be sold for cash as Saver seats. Anything else from that they need to buy from the airline at roughly standard rates.

How many routes do you reckon have Saver seats in Upper in November? 4. The other 24 routes have nothing.

Yes, despite 5+ flights to New York each day, there is not one single UC seat on any of them for the rest of the month.

It’s the unfortunate end result of completely separating the legal ownership of the loyalty scheme from the airline. Remember it’s NOT like BA. At BA, Avios Group and the airline have the same parent company in IAG, and indeed BA is a major shareholder in Avios Group. This is NOT the case with Virgin Red. It is NOT owned by the airline. They owe each other nothing.

[TGLoyalty]

@Rob perhaps I was being too nice to the Revenue Team but one day they’ll learn when they need to dump excess capacity giving it to loyalty customers for points rather than slashing fares is a more sensible choice.

Discounting is always a race to the bottom

[techandyuk]

Well ….. I’ll keep my eye open and fingers crossed I can do some jiggery-pokery with days – but I fear the days of planning MCO trips a convenient 11 months out are not going to be as realistic going forward…. The balance of cheap outbound but eyewatering inbound is just senseless!

Oh.. and all seats were wide open for selection on the seat picker just now – so I suspect they haven’t sold/allocated another UC seat from FC, so I can’t imagine its ‘demand’

It’s got me thinking more broader afield, like why doesn’t the Airline and Voyages team with Virgin Wines – try onboard and order for back home sort of thing… so many group opportunities being missed…. and they when you think about what they’ve been giving Virgin Voyages cruises away for as a point incentive its an absolutely shocking usage of points using then as premium airline redemptions now… I could rumble on about the 4th Voyages ship (Brilliant lady) not launching – will it ever? … can’t help but think that Virgin would do a better job of using its Airline to feed its Cruise Ships aka TUI does with Marella pretty slick..

The whole proposition needs to be better connected…

[NorthernLass]

Can you do cheap outbound and mix and match with avios inbound? I realise this is going to mean either transiting LHR (sad face) or hoping EI will produce some unicorn J seats but this is where the flexibility of using points might actually save the day.

*Some really good saver fares MAN-BGI in the 2nd half of March got me thinking about this, although we do mix and match airlines quite a lot. Presumably points prices are low because the route is seasonal and therefore there may not be a return option on VS for a normal-length holiday?

[davefl]

techandyuk wrote:

Hmmm definitely feel like this is a huge devaluation

cha
Not sure why you’re so surprised.

Seriously considering calling it a day for flying club

Already have. Burned some of my balance on the wine advent calendar, will burn some more on a KLM short haul next month just so I can use the lounges with my 6 months remaining gold status (otherwise EZ would be a far better option), then in the future it’s Aer Lingus for trips going west.

Great cabin crew but poor planes, poor food, ridiculous tax/charges, dreadful lounge offerings at MAN, ATL and MCO and, clearly don’t give a stuff about their passenger base in the north.

[techandyuk]

NorthernLass wrote:

Can you do cheap outbound and mix and match with avios inbound? I realise this is going to mean either transiting LHR

It wasn’t so bad when BA operated LHR>MCO (we used that!) but with TPA and MCO being LGW routes its just awful from MAN… I’ve never really looked at EI since getting a decent seat on Avios and historic lack of companion voucher made it seem less accessible, plus I feel less excited about EI to MCO than I do TUI if I’m being honest…

What a turn for the books, it wasn’t that long ago when we were awash with carriers and options from MAN to Orlando …. not so anymore … having said that following a few Disney youtube’s and its seemed that even Virgin’s loads on MCO are lacklustre … I guess thats the result of pay (a lot) more and get (a lot lot lot) less at WDW….

[Blair Waldorf Salad]

O/T but wanted to remind that EI offer a companion voucher and 4 upgrade vouchers per year to its Aer Club Concierge members. Platinum members get 1 upgrade voucher per year. Each of these cohorts are prioritised and waitlisted for award seats, meaning much availability never sees the website because it’s siphoned off to the waitlist first.

[NorthernLass]

@techandyuk – you’re right, LGW sucks these days! Also it does seem like a dream when you back at where MAN served in the glory days of the 90s and early 2000s – NAS, MLE, MIA, HAV to name but a few. Someone posted yesterday that MAN serves 200 destinations, but about 90% of these are LCC routes to Europe!

I know a few people who have chosen to fly MAN-LHR-MIA in school holidays because of Virgin’s insane cash prices to MCO, and with the USA being so expensive and otherwise unappealing these days, you have got to wonder what VS’s entire pricing rationale is, both on cash and points!

@BWS, that does make sense – do they have a lot of status members in the north of England then?

[BBbetter]

It was pretty clear the day Rob posted the first article. Not sure why it has taken so long for people to understand what happened.

It’s irrelevant now for anyone who has to travel during peak dates (school holidays).
It’s good for those without kids and can be flexible with dates.
Boomers, gen x, singles and couples with no kids can party!

[lev441]

Rob Burgess wrote:

It’s more simple than that. Unlike BA, Qatar and Finnair, the loyalty team lost the fight with RevMan.

It’s the unfortunate end result of completely separating the legal ownership of the loyalty scheme from the airline. Remember it’s NOT like BA. At BA, Avios Group and the airline have the same parent company in IAG, and indeed BA is a major shareholder in Avios Group. This is NOT the case with Virgin Red. It is NOT owned by the airline. They owe each other nothing.

@rob – why did virgin decide to split the legal ownership?

[degsy]

@Rob – I think you’ve said a couple of times that fundamentally the issue is that VS is not filling its planes? I may well be missing something here, but how will these changes help solve that issue?
Isn’t all this just reducing demand further?

[BBbetter]

degsy wrote:

@Rob – I think you’ve said a couple of times that fundamentally the issue is that VS is not filling its planes? I may well be missing something here, but how will these changes help solve that issue?
Isn’t all this just reducing demand further?

Why will it reduce total demand?
UK loyalty members used to redeem for mainly peak dates depriving VS of the higher marginal cash revenue, which won’t be happening going forward.
Whereas US points collectors who used to see zero availability previously, will see cheap rewards on non-peak dates and can be tempted to buy VS points.
Atleast that’s the theory.

[degsy]

Why will it reduce total demand?
UK loyalty members used to redeem for mainly peak dates depriving VS of the higher marginal cash revenue, which won’t be happening going forward.
Whereas US points collectors who used to see zero availability previously, will see cheap rewards on non-peak dates and can be tempted to buy VS points.
Atleast that’s the theory.[/quote]

Thanks @BBbetter, that makes sense I think – VS is looking to tap into a larger population of points-rich US customers and run the risk of dis-enfranchising a smaller UK group including me who don’t now have the number of points (or flexibility) needed. Nor the intention of ever paying for a cash fare.
Does this logic still work for non-US routes though e.g. Will there be many US people wanting to travel to Barbados via LHR??

[Mikeact]

NorthernLass wrote:

Can you do cheap outbound and mix and match with avios inbound? I realise this is going to mean either transiting LHR (sad face) or hoping EI will produce some unicorn J seats but this is where the flexibility of using points might actually save the day.

Good luck getting Avios seats back from Orlando, particularly CW.

[Whatsthepoint]

Mikeact wrote:

NorthernLass wrote:

Can you do cheap outbound and mix and match with avios inbound? I realise this is going to mean either transiting LHR (sad face) or hoping EI will produce some unicorn J seats but this is where the flexibility of using points might actually save the day.

Good luck getting Avios seats back from Orlando, particularly CW.

Never, ever had a problem from Orlando in CW and easier today with additional 241 availability.

[NorthernLass]

OP only wants 2 seats and has as much chance as anyone of securing them – even more so if armed with all the advice on here!

[techandyuk]

NorthernLass wrote:

OP only wants 2 seats and has as much chance as anyone of securing them – even more so if armed with all the advice on here!

❤️ Thanks!

I’ve actually been a follower of HfP for years, and got into this with bmi for StarGold, earning and burning until their destruction by LH, (still makes me sad to this day as they were lightyears beyond their time)… then VS Gold when LittleRed was alive, again miss that…. so I am always super grateful for the advice of HfP and in the forums 😉

[Pongos waring]

Depending on how long you plan to stay for you could do 18 Sept – 6 Oct

If you go Premium out (day flight) and UC back (night flight) it’s 163k + £1539 or UC / UC it’s 186k + £1650 whack a gold voucher on that and you’re looking pretty good

[Wiseoldman]

I am glad booed my parents to ATL just before the scheme changed; 130,000 for PE flights with a 30% Amex transfer. Now those dates are 300,000 points plus.

Crazy pricing.

[Aardvark]

Flying Upper Class both ways to CPT in a few weeks under the old system. However, time will tell but Upper Class I expect will be almost impossible to get now at an acceptable pts total. But using PTs with a Companion Voucher for Premium Economy Return (booking 2 one ways) will still result in a significant saving than a cash fare. I think it is just dependant on the route – USA routes look quite good!

[Pongos waring]

Wiseoldman wrote:

I am glad booed my parents to ATL just before the scheme changed; 130,000 for PE flights with a 30% Amex transfer. Now those dates are 300,000 points plus.

Crazy pricing.

Bit harsh to boo them !

[Rob]

lev441 wrote:

@rob – why did virgin decide to split the legal ownership?

Few reasons:

*there SHOULD be some sort of pan-Virgin loyalty programme, so the logic was there (snag is that few Virgin Group businesses have signed up!)

*it is possible that it was a way of helping the finances of the airline because Virgin Red ‘acquired’ your points balance, which was a big fat negative balance sheet liability for Virgin Atlantic

Worth noting that it was done at the time that AFKLM was planning to invest in VA. Had that not collapsed, the airline would have had different shareholders to Virgin Red. Perhaps Branson wanted to keep control of loyalty even if he was (at that time) giving up control of the airline.

[Ashraj]

Recent experience trying to book a reward flight on Upper class:

I finally found a route and dates with not extortionate rates for redemption. Checked the night before all well. Called Virgin this morning waited on hold for 45 minutes to find the price has changed dramatically by 150k points. I have collected a good stash of virgin points as an alternative to BA but I’m now having second thoughts as to their usefulness.