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I was flying from Cancun to Edinburgh in May with my wife. We had used avios and a companion ticket for business class flights. Our route was EDI to LHR, transfer to LGW then LGW to CUN. The return flight to LGW was OK but when we got to LHR we got caught up in the IT fiasco and our flight to EDI was cancelled. we had to organise a hotel ourselves and when we got there we had a message from BA that our flight home was now LCY to GLA economy class and if we were unhappy with this we had to phone the customer services number to discuss options. Unsurprisingly they were not accepting any calls on the customer services number so we made our way to LCY and managed to get on a flight to EDI economy. It’s been a bit of a grind to get expenses returned and the compensation for the cancelled flights but we managed to get it. However BA are not listening to my request for the return of avios for the downgraded flights. The latest reply this morning was “I’ve spoken with our Refunds team who have confirmed the only amount due back to you is £6.50 per person, which is the difference in tax. Because you booked through Reward Flight Saver, you do not pay for the UK domestic flights in your booking. As a result, there is nothing to refund from this part of the booking.” This can’t be correct. Any suggestions as to where I go from here?
Whilst I’m really impressed that you have successfully extracted the correct compensation from BA plus your hotel costs, the domestic leg connecting with a longhaul flight on an avios booking is free – it does not cost any more avios than the long haul.
There is just a small amount of tax though that you pay for the domestic leg, and that’s higher in any cabin class above Y, than in Y, and that number BA is quoting sounds about right.
Technically on a downgrade on such a short flight you are entitled to 30% reimbursement of what you paid for that flight whether in avios or cash but 30% of practically nothing is.. practically nothing.
Good going on what you did achieve though 🙂
Thanks for that, I didn’t know that’s what they did.
The domestic connecting leg may not cost you anything extra compared to booking to LON, but BA’s claim that “there is nothing to refund” is bunkum – by that logic, you’d owe BA money if downgraded on a cheap ex-EU fare!
Downgrade reimbursement is payable at 75% of the pro-rata fare paid for the domestic leg. CUN-LGW is 4,964 miles whilst LHR-EDI is 331 miles, so makes up 6.251% of the distance of your return journey. Thus you are due back 4.689% of the Avios for your return leg. This is as per the formula determined in the Mennens case (reference this in your response).
The fact that you didn’t pay any extra Avios for your wife, because of your Amex voucher, is also irrelevant (no doubt BA will claim this was also free and so “there is nothing to refund”). The voucher is deemed to be a substitute for the Avios you would otherwise have used – after all you’ve used up the voucher, which clearly has an inherent value. So 4.689% is due as if you’d also paid Avios for her seat.
Where it gets more complicated is determining how much the carrier surcharge (YQ) element is. Since this also varies by class, it is included in the Mennens calculation. However, with RFS redemptions it’s left opaque how much of the cash paid is YQ, and how much is true taxes and fees. I would posit that the calculation should take the total amount of cash paid, deduct actual taxes and fees and then the remainder effectively constitutes YQ.
Unfortunately you may have to take this one to CEDR to get what you’re owed. The only advantage of this is that CEDR can’t order BA to give you Avios, so you’ll get the cash equivalent value instead, which is probably favourable as it will be based on the “buy” rates which are typically 1.6-2p per Avios.
@Oortam, can you confirm what, if any avios/cash you paid for the domestic sector? On one PNR domestic connections are genuinely free since the new RFS pricing structure was introduced late last year, but if you booked prior to that, you were probably charged a small amount of cash to cover the airport tax.
@baec-newbie – I’m not sure if I agree with your logic but, in any event, if any downgrade reimbursement were due it would be at 30% (not 75%) as for UK261 downgrades, it is based on each sector and that domestic flight is sub 1,500km. There is also the issue, beyond the free sector argument, that for these purposes, the price also would have been the same in economy or Club. If any refund were due, you really are talking buttons and valuing time taken at CEDR well below minimum wage.
… you’d owe BA money if downgraded on a cheap ex-EU fare!
And if there is any bunkum it’s that.
The regulation is quite clear that the downgrade reimbursement is based on what you paid for your ticket and not fare difference.
… you’d owe BA money if downgraded on a cheap ex-EU fare!
And if there is any bunkum it’s that.
The regulation is quite clear that the downgrade reimbursement is based on what you paid for your ticket and not fare difference.
The difference is that if you do an ex-EU trip via London you have to pay extra for the sector to/from London whereas for a domestic connection the fare is given free – you only pay taxes/airport fees. On your analysis, where, for instance, people decided not to take the last domestic flight, they would be entitled to a refund for the last sector.
I paid for the ticket on 27th December 2022 and BA didn’t split the avios for each part of the ticket. I was given a total price of 180,000 avios for the ticket. The second ticket was paid for using a companion ticket. I paid a total of £900.00 in charges which again weren’t broken down but I assume were split with £450 per person. There was a breakdown of the taxes at the bottom of the receipt but id didn’t add up to £900. If you think it would be useful I could post up a sreenshot
I paid for the ticket on 27th December 2022 and BA didn’t split the avios for each part of the ticket. I was given a total price of 180,000 avios for the ticket. The second ticket was paid for using a companion ticket. I paid a total of £900.00 in charges which again weren’t broken down but I assume were split with £450 per person. There was a breakdown of the taxes at the bottom of the receipt but id didn’t add up to £900. If you think it would be useful I could post up a sreenshot
@Oortam, at best, you are looking at downgrade reimbursement at 75% of the pro-rata fare (money fees, and Avios, in your case) for the short last leg. Given the distances, and given you’ve had the cash component, the number of Avios in question probably isn’t work arguing over. You are correct, however, that BA are wrong not to refund anything, they should refund some Avios too. The time and effort required to find someone in BA who could review your case and issue the correct refund is unlikely to be worth it IMO.I paid for the ticket on 27th December 2022 and BA didn’t split the avios for each part of the ticket. I was given a total price of 180,000 avios for the ticket. The second ticket was paid for using a companion ticket. I paid a total of £900.00 in charges which again weren’t broken down but I assume were split with £450 per person. There was a breakdown of the taxes at the bottom of the receipt but id didn’t add up to £900. If you think it would be useful I could post up a sreenshot
@Oortam, at best, you are looking at downgrade reimbursement at 75% of the pro-rata fare (money fees, and Avios, in your case) for the short last leg. Given the distances, and given you’ve had the cash component, the number of Avios in question probably isn’t work arguing over. You are correct, however, that BA are wrong not to refund anything, they should refund some Avios too. The time and effort required to find someone in BA who could review your case and issue the correct refund is unlikely to be worth it IMO.As above, it’s only 30% downgrade reimbursement for flights under 1,500km so even less worth considering, if it is eligible at all. For the purposes of downgrade reimbursement, each flight is considered separately, so the long haul is irrelevant.
I paid for the ticket on 27th December 2022 and BA didn’t split the avios for each part of the ticket. I was given a total price of 180,000 avios for the ticket. The second ticket was paid for using a companion ticket. I paid a total of £900.00 in charges which again weren’t broken down but I assume were split with £450 per person. There was a breakdown of the taxes at the bottom of the receipt but id didn’t add up to £900. If you think it would be useful I could post up a sreenshot
The price of 180k you paid is the standard off peak return fare and it’s the same price from Edinburgh as it is from London – BA allows you to add a domestic connection at no additional fare. There is sometimes a slight tax difference but £450 tax per person is also the same as from London. The RFS taxes you paid won’t equate to the taxes, fees and charges BA may list in the confirmation, but do include £191 APD each plus airport charges.
Thanks for all the replies. I was coming to the same conclusion. Life’s too short.
Looking at a new public-rate booking, the total govt/airport taxes & fees for EDI-LHR-LGW-CUN, for 2 people in J, amount to £716.92. So the effective YQ paid in this instance is £183.08. You paid 180k Avios and the voucher effectively paid for another 180k Avios.
I disagree with @JDB’s assertion that the “flight” distance to be taken into account is that of the specific flight on which one is downgraded. It is well-established that the same wording – “flight” – used in Article 7 refers to the overall, end-to-end journey; this is why if the EDI-LHR flight had been cancelled, leading to a qualifying delay in arrival at CUN, £520 in compensation would be payable (i.e. based on the total EDI-CUN distance, not the £220 payable based on the EDI-LHR distance).
Accordingly I remain of the belief that 75% is the correct percentage to use. This makes for compensation of 8,439 Avios (75% of 6.251% of 180k) + £4.29 on the YQ.
Clearly not worth pursuing the £4.29 given you’ve had more than that in APD back, but I’d say 8,000-odd Avios is. Obviously it’s up to you whether you’d prefer to just write that off, but personally speaking, I wouldn’t accept being fobbed off with platitudes after a downgrade.
@baec_newbie – see EC261 Interpretative Guidelines:-
“D. Reimbursement in the event of downgrading
4.4.11. Calculation of the amount
In accordance with Article 10 of the Regulation, reimbursement is payable only for the flight on which the passenger has been downgraded and not for the whole journey included in a single ticket, which may include two or more con necting flights. The aforementioned reimbursement should be paid within 7 days.”Duff advice is worse than no advice.
Clearly not worth pursuing the £4.29 given you’ve had more than that in APD back,
APD is irrelevant to this situation as it would have NOT been paid in the first place on a flight to the UK and with connection arising from it.
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