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VS miles redemption with ANA first class CANCELLED

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  • StillintheSun

    @JDB I disagree with you on this.
    Stage 1: Write a letter to airline noting their failure to inform you of your EC rights and notifying them that you require a re-route at your convenience and supply new dates.
    Stage 2: If they refuse, supply them with screen shots of the cost of alternative flights and inform them that the same will be purchased unless they agree to re-route.
    Stage 3: Upon further refusal buy flights and issue claim.

    Of course this does not deal with what “re-route at the passenger’s convenience” should be interpreted as in the context of EC Flight Regulations. Although those regs aim to “ensure a high degree of protection to passengers” [recital 1]. However, The above process is not a loss of a chance claim but rather ensures the loss is crystallised with the company provided with every opportunity of avoiding the passenger incurring the loss for which they are claiming.

    StillintheSun

    By the way I absolutely agree for what its worth that you should try Section 75 first however that is by no means guaranteed. If law was clear there would be no need for lawyers. There are several potential paths to customer victory in these matters (Credit Card S.75, CEDR, MCOL) and the aggrieved should try as many as they feel comfortable with. If Section 75 works it is certainly the most efficient!

    JDB

    @JDB I disagree with you on this.
    Stage 1: Write a letter to airline noting their failure to inform you of your EC rights and notifying them that you require a re-route at your convenience and supply new dates.

    As @meta says, there is no specified penalty for failure to advise a passenger of their rights, so once you have taken the refund, it’s all much harder (including persuading the airline) and to go and buy/fund expensive tickets (and correspondingly high court fee), then go to MCOL has a fair degree of risk. s75 is cost free but as a route to enforcing EU261 rights vs. Virgin is tricky, particularly when ANA is the operating carrier.

    StillintheSun

    @JDB As @meta says, there is no specified penalty for failure to advise a passenger of their rights, so once you have taken the refund, it’s all much harder (including persuading the airline) and to go and buy/fund expensive tickets (and correspondingly high court fee), then go to MCOL has a fair degree of risk. s75 is cost free but as a route to enforcing EU261 rights vs. Virgin is tricky, particularly when ANA is the operating carrier.

    I agree with this and I would not buy any alternative tickets that I was not ultimately prepared to pay for myself. All litigation is risky and speaking generally law is good for lawyers, perhaps no so much for everyone else. However, we were initially dealing with the failure to inform of rights point and not the other potential issues that exist in successfully recovering damages from an airline.

    The holy grail of English Tort law is that a tortfeasor should put a wronged party in the same position he would have been in the absence of any proven wrong. Thus my reasoning with regards to the failure to notify of rights is at least conceptually sound from first principles. Evidence as always is another matter. Moreover, there is no precedent in any of this and so it is all up for grabs!

    My strong personal view is that no one should be paying out for flights that they cannot afford to ultimately pay for themselves but if you are willing to throw the dice there are plenty of decent arguments in favour of the consumer. There is much to knock about English law but generally a great many rights are granted to the individual vis-a-vis the State and/or the multi-national corporate. The problem is the ability to enforce the same. Personally, I hope as many people as possible sock it to BA. A little David vs Goliath is good for the soul.

    cinereus

    @cinereus You could, but Virgin can, faced with thousands of pounds say that they did not record the call.

    First try S75 as it’s simple and you don’t have to advance any cash. Then do MCOL, which has fees and can be quite substantial for larger claims. I’d send first a letter before action outlining your EU/UK261 rights before that stating that you’ll take them to court and/or start a dispute via cc company.

    Thanks.

    Regarding MCOL, there is a sliding scale for fees. Given my ideal resolution would be a re-booking not the £11k cash, would it be okay to pay the lower fee to start with? I think usually after making judgement if there resolution does turn out to be for a greater cash sum you can pay the balance later (and of course the Defendants would be liable to cover costs).

    I have experience with a couple of MCOL cases before but agree that S75 might be the simplest course of action now. You mention “It’s all about how you present the case to credit card company and how good the cc company is”. What sort of phrasing do you recommend and what do you think I should be avoiding?

    cinereus

    Does anyone more knowledgeable than me know whether it’s possible to find out which day an ANA flight was cancelled?

    Just Nick

    Well today I submitted a MCOL to recover the cost of a return flight to Tokyo with ANA, 600 Euros EC261 cancellation compensation, over £300 for unrecoverable costs and the £600 for the legal costs of submitting the claim. Never done this before and not sure how it will work. The call centre for ANA told me that only an idiot would attempt to sue an airline. Hopefully I have not made a mistake.
    Nick

    Lady London

    Good luck @Just Nick please keep us informed.

    The arrogance! ANA saying “only an idiot would attempt to sue an airline”. It just makes you want to take them down a peg or two, and is why 261 exists.

    Please take the Daily Mail photographer with you, when you go to Heathrow with the bailiffs, to impound an ANA plane to enforce judgment. ANA will owe the fees for that as well.

    I do hope if your ticket was bought from Virgin, you are claiming against both though. Just in case.

    Just Nick

    I just thought I would provide an update on my ANA first class reward flight saga. Flight booked through Virgin with miles but operated by ANA who cancelled the flight within 14 days. Submitted EC261 letter which was ignored, submitted a letter before action which was ignored and then submitted an MCOL for £12,600. Just had a call yesterday from ANA and they have moved my flight to me preferred dates in November. Result!!!

    Still waiting for an update on my court fees, my unrecoverable costs and the EC261 compensation. Still a brilliant result so far but you have to be really persistent. Hope this helps anyone else starting this journey. Stick with and you will get there.

    memesweeper

    Only an idiot, eh? Well done @nick, and thanks for updating us all.

    Lady London

    Very well done @Just Nick.This is helpful to encourage others who’ve also had ANA cancel flights they booked via Virgin.

    Have you informed the court? If not, talk to the Clerk to the Court, do not give up on your other costs and the compensation. The fact that the cost of rerouting has effectively been paid will be adjusted into the records of the case, giving the judge a good opportunity to despatch the case quickly awarding you your fees and unrecoverable costs (assuming you claimed anything else in the MCOL). It’s worth a call if they are answering the phone as I am sure they will quickly realise they can now get the case finalized and off their workload.

    Sadly for ANA it sounds like they might have actually had to pay for some legal advice, as well as your hopefully returned costs and compensation if all goes well from here.

    Will you let us know when it’s all done and you’ve got all your money back? Congratulations again.

    Lady London

    Deleted

    meta

    Well done. Don’t close the MCOL case just yet. Make sure you have an actual ticket (that is e-ticket number and not just PNR). You can amend the claim amount, but you need to talk to the Clerk. They will be able to advise.

    Just Nick

    Hi all,

    I want to thank people on this forum (in particular Lady London and Meta) for their help and advice with this issue. I had a call from ANA this morning, and they have settled the claim in full. This has now closed down the MCOL action. It has been a long and quite daunting process however, if you know you are right, then stick with it. The key is to know and understand your rights, be clear and reasonable about the resolution you are looking for, have evidence to support that and finally remain calm and polite at all times. The best thing is that I have an ANA first class return to Tokyo to look forward to in November. It should be amazing!!! Suntory 21 year old whiskey will never taste so good.

    JDB

    Well done for both a great result and persevering. I hope Japan opens up and you have a fabulous trip.

    You comment contains the key word “reasonable” which has, I’m quite sure, been key to your success. A number of people here are clearly asking for too much and are then surprised by their failure…

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by JDB.
    meta

    Great result. Although beware that ANA announced yesterday that as long as Russian airspace is closed they won’t be flying from London. They are still selling tickets though!

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