VS miles redemption with ANA first class CANCELLED

[SamG]

https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/everyday-money/credit-and-purchases/how-youre-protected-when-you-pay-by-card

Which? has a similar link

The issue I see here with S75 is twofold – 1) you paid Virgin. They aren’t the supplier. This is specifically called out as an area where S75 may not apply. 2) you want to use your EU261 right to travel on a future convenient date. I’d be more confident with an S75 claim if I was looking for a like for like replacement I.e. travelling on the same dates (although what StillintheSun says is interesting!)

This is a difficult one unfortunately as I believe you’d end up needing to buy a new ticket and enforce it in the jurisdiction of departure. From my research previously if this is Germany this didn’t look impossible to do online. However I would raise it with my card issuer anyway as it does seem YMMV

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[meta]

@SamG My experience is different and have had success in the recent years with S75 booked via agents. It’s all about how you present the case to credit card company and how good the cc company is. At least for me, Amex has always been good and never had a problem with S75 claims. Also I remember somebody here posted last year where they managed to win S75 claim with Amex for Virgin issued ANA reward flights.

We also have two posters here – one from Germany who has an additional problem that he purchased on Curve in which case no S75 possible and one from UK which is more clear cut.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[SamG]

meta wrote:

@SamG My experience is different and have had success in the recent years with S75 booked via agents. It’s all about how you present the case to credit card company and how good the cc company is. At least for me, Amex has always been good and never had a problem with S75 claims. Also I remember somebody here posted last year where they managed to win S75 claim with Amex for Virgin issued ANA reward flights.

We also have two posters here – one from Germany who has an additional problem that he purchased on Curve in which case no S75 possible and one from UK which is more clear cut.

I think it’s important to highlight that there is the possibility the credit card company will say that debtor-creditor-supplier relationship has been broken in this circumstance due to the involvement of an “agency” (in this case Virgin). There are many references to this online and I have personally had this conversation with HSBC in the past.

However it’s definitely one angle to pursue as it can be a successful route as you say (and indeed I got my money back from HSBC on that occasion, although a rather more modest amount!)

[Lady London]

I think in keeping a s.75 claim fully attached to the UK credit card that is jointly liable with the merchant, there is a big difference between payment intermediaries such as Paypal, where the Paypal form chosen by the cardholder seems currently to be viewed lead to Paypal contracting with the merchant and not the cardholder. In the different case that Paypal may be chosen by the merchant as a payment processor, this problem does not arise as it doesn’t break the link.

A travel agency is completely different and is expected to provide what has been paid for one way or another. This includes the ticket and any statutory rights attached to it. Statutory rights don’t need to be in the contract they are just there anyway. Some travel agencies just arrange for your payment to be taken by the airline directly on your card, as corporate travel agents often do, in which case there is no ambiguity. Personally I don’t care what problems a travel agent has in providing a ticket for the flights I purchased : these are not my problems to solve and statute EU261 means the travel agent, however they do it must provide my choice of rerouting same day or later, or refund at my choice, and duty of care, and if applicable any compensation. As a statutory right that can’t be removed by contract (eg agency’s ts and cs, nor airline rules.

Practically speaking I’ll deal with the agency’s chain of supply, ie the ticketing and/or operating airline, but actually I believe if you paid a travel agent that is where the liability rests. Luckily s.75 makes your UK issued card jointly liable for all of the above, as most travel agents have low resources compared with the value of the tickets they sell and in the case of EU261, those tickets’ potential liabilities.

If someone pays on a chargecard or non-UK credit card then their position would be much more vulnerable to having to spend a great deal of effort to get their rights if costs of rerouting / duty of care were too much greater than the chargeback which would be the maximum those other non “UK credit cards” might offer. They would have to sue jointly the travel agency and the whole supplier chain as co-defendants in one suit, to avoid all the finger-pointing and buck-passing. But I think they would get what’s due to them under EU261 as the judge would have to identify who is responsible for which element in the chain fronted by the travel agent. This could however get sticky with difficulties of enforcement across jurisdictions.

This is where insurance becomes useful as it avoids a lot of these practical problems.

IANAL but I believe HSBC UK credit card would have been found to be jointly liable in court. Like the dropped flight segments issue, I suspect credit cards don’t want to get a judgment in court that would force 100% compliance across the industry if they lost, so they are presenting anything they pay as discretionary so as to keep it grey so as to give them cover for cases they really don’t want to pay. I think making the fact that you paid through a travel agency being an issue is a spurious claim by UK credit card companies and they are fully jointly liable the same as if you paid the airline direct.

[kevin]

Thanks meta.

Going to send off the email addressed to both VS and ANA – does anyone know what their email addresses are? Both simply provide an on line form which make sit hard to address both – I may just have to send my writing to both separately, but explicitly stating that the same email has been sent to the other side.

[Lady London]

Just Nick wrote:

By way of an update, just had a very LONG call with ANA via their international call centre. They have no knowledge or understanding of EC261 and are doing everything to try and turn me away from booking new dates as they are obliged to. It is going to be a challenge to resolve I feel.

Nick

They will soon “learn” (although airlines know what they are liable for in this area even if they play their agents dumb) when you win and they have to pay you and/or reroute you.

[meta]

@kevin I’d find out phsyical addresses and send a letter by post recorded delivery signed for. That way you also have proof that they have received it. Emails are also easier to ignore. You can find addresses via Companies House.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Just Nick]

Just an update on my virgin first class redemption with ANA. This was LHR to HND return.

ANA cancelled my flight without telling me. They did not offer a re-routing even though JAL were operating the same route at the same timing. The call centre says I have no rights under EC261 despite trying 3 times to resolve.

Have sent a formal EC261 letter to ANA UK office. Completely ignored.

Have sent a letter before action for EC261 compensation and the cost of the new flights with ANA I would have chosen. Letter completely ignored.

Looks like court action is next. Why do ANA make things so hard?

Nick

[meta]

You should really put both Virgin and ANA on letter before action and let the judge sort out who is responsible. That way you avoid ANA blaming Virgin. Virgin can refund you and say that you requested it and since they are not a party to the action you would have no recourse but to restart the process. Other scenarios might come up as well. So best to put both.

With MCOL (not sure ANA participates in CEDR, but Virgin does), you’ll need to put a monetary value to the redemption. This can be either by purchasing the new ticket, or estimating the cost. In the latter case, you then might be out of pocket if the price goes up.

[ChrisC]

VS uses Aviation ADR not CEDR

ANA isn’t listed in the CAA website as being a member of a passengers arbitration scheme

[meta]

Yes, the only option then is MCOL really.

[Thegasman]

I disagree with advice to include VS in LBA’s or MCOL claim. Legislation is clear that it’s operating carrier’s liability so you are just confusing the issue. VS won’t make a discretionary payment to cover a £10k+ replacement ticket as they will be very aware they are not liable.

When the MCOL papers are served on ANA’s U.K. agent or office I’m sure they will be passed up the food chain pretty quickly & they will settle.

[meta]

ANA will ignore. You put both on the claim. I had situations like this before and you put both. Judge will decide who is responsible.

Virgin might not make a payment, but will make sure that ANA rebooks you once papers are served. You absolutely avoid ping-pong. On top, ANA will say that you requested a refund from Virgin and it’s game over.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[JDB]

meta wrote:

ANA will ignore. You put both on the claim. I had situations like this before and you put both. Judge will decide who is responsible.

Virgin might not make a payment, but will make sure that ANA rebooks you once papers are served. You absolutely avoid ping-pong. On top, ANA will say that you requested a refund from Virgin and it’s game over.

Yes, you really need to put both. If ANA were to ignore so you got a default judgment, where does that get you? Then you try a second time vs Virgin who will say it is res judicata and that may be the end of it. It’s a VS redemption using their points and ?? on a VS ticket; they absolutely need to be named on the claim. It’s a common misconception when people rush off to MCOL that you have won when you get a judgment in your favour, but enforcing that judgment can often be difficult and the court will assist but you have to pay. Any respectable English/Welsh organisation will comply but others may not.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[cinereus]

Okay so I have a similar issue.

I am booked to fly ANA in F LHR-HND in April returning in May. This booking was made using VS points several months ago

I called Virgin to ask about rebooking and they said they would happily change the dates if ANA release reward space. A call to ANA was not fruitful and they told me everything needed to be sorted out by Virgin including arranging an alternative route if necessary.

My flight depart from LHR so would be under UK legislation. I paid with my Virgin credit card so have S75 protection. Obviously I am getting nowhere with either VS or ANA.

My questions are as follows:

1. Does that fact that my return flight is probably not going to be cancelled affect things? It’s not until mid May.

2. My goal is to rebook for dates of my choosing. What’s the best way to go about this? What do I need to do right now?

3. Do I have time to go through S75? My outbound flight was due to leave on 8 April. Or is MCOL my only course of action now?

4. I had another booking that I cancelled through Virgin but they didn’t tell me at the time it had already been cancelled by ANA. Do I have any rights regarding this? If I’d known I obviously would not have cancelled myself.

[meta]

@cinereus Have you even read the whole thread? The answers to your questions will be known when you do. There are a few other threads on the topic, so do a search.

On the last question, which is new, if you accepted a refund then, no you don’t have any further rights. You could try and pursue Virgin/ANA for not informing you of your rights (EU/UK261 explicitly says that they must), but what monetary value do you ascribe to that?

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[StillintheSun]

@Meta On the last question, which is new, if you accepted a refund then, no you don’t have any further rights. You could try and pursue Virgin/ANA for not informing you of your rights (EU/UK261 explicitly says that they must), but what monetary value do you ascribe to that?

The loss is simple. Had the customer been informed of their rights then they would have pursued those rights and thus the loss is the difference between the value of the right that the airline failed to inform the customer off minus the compensation actually provided.
Thus re-route at convenience new ticket cost £5,000 minus say refund provided £1,000 = £4,000.
I think the EC Regs may actually explicitly deal with this situation but it would require a re-read.

[meta]

It’s not as simple as that. You need to provide evidence that Virgin didn’t inform you of your rights and then that you didn’t choose a refund option. Unless you have a recording of the call, it will be difficult.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[cinereus]

kevin wrote:

Thanks meta.

Going to send off the email addressed to both VS and ANA – does anyone know what their email addresses are? Both simply provide an on line form which make sit hard to address both – I may just have to send my writing to both separately, but explicitly stating that the same email has been sent to the other side.

Kevin, did you manage to find email addresses? I’m going to send by post as well but email addresses would be helpful when time is of the essence.

[cinereus]

meta wrote:

@cinereus Have you even read the whole thread? The answers to your questions will be known when you do. There are a few other threads on the topic, so do a search.

On the last question, which is new, if you accepted a refund then, no you don’t have any further rights. You could try and pursue Virgin/ANA for not informing you of your rights (EU/UK261 explicitly says that they must), but what monetary value do you ascribe to that?

Meta thanks for your help. I did read the whole thread first but I thought the specifics of my case are different.

1. I re-read again and can’t see anyone discussing point 1. You specifically mentioned starting action before the first flight which I can do but a) they have not refunded anything yet and I’m not going to be at the airport on the date of the flight to be denied boarding and b) if my return flight is not cancelled and instead gets re-routed how does this affect things?

2. People have said both S75 and MCOL. Others have said S75 doesn’t help. You yourself said “go via S75” and then later said “the only option is MCOL”

Do I do both? Or one first? If so which one?

4. Surely I can get a copy of the call through disclosure?

[StillintheSun]

The law is often more simple than the evidence gathering. My point is that legally there seems to be a relatively clear path through. Evidentially, GDPR makes obtaining a recording (if it exists) relatively easy. I simply asked BA for the relevant one and to be fair to them they provided me with a voice recording by email with no messing about. I would expect a company such as Virgin to comply with their GDPR obligations. Falling foul of the Information Commissioner is unwise.

[StillintheSun]

Here is a link to Virgin’s personal data request form should anyone need it:

https://www.virginatlantic.com/content/dam/vaa/documents/footer/Customer-Access-Request-Form-Revision11.0.pdf

[JDB]

StillintheSun wrote:

The law is often more simple than the evidence gathering. My point is that legally there seems to be a relatively clear path through. Evidentially, GDPR makes obtaining a recording (if it exists) relatively easy. I simply asked BA for the relevant one and to be fair to them they provided me with a voice recording by email with no messing about. I would expect a company such as Virgin to comply with their GDPR obligations. Falling foul of the Information Commissioner is unwise.

Even if you obtained the recording, making the ‘loss of chance’ claim – ie if I had been told x I would have done y or bought a winning lottery ticket is not as easy as it sounds, nor is trying to use s75 as a back door to enforcing EU261 rights.

[meta]

@cinereus You could, but Virgin can, faced with thousands of pounds say that they did not record the call.

First try S75 as it’s simple and you don’t have to advance any cash. Then do MCOL, which has fees and can be quite substantial for larger claims. I’d send first a letter before action outlining your EU/UK261 rights before that stating that you’ll take them to court and/or start a dispute via cc company.

[meta]

@JDB thanks for pointing this out more succinctly. EU/UK261 does not specify what is the penalty for not informing about the rights. It could just be a nominal sum based on how judge feels. However, it could enforce your overall argument for asking for a re-route and not as a standalone claim.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .