Valuing my points – what I REALLY got over my last year of redemptions

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• Sam Goss says:

  9 Oct9 October 05:45

  I have Kyoto booked later this month – same as you – I would NEVER pay a grand a night for a hotel room, but overall it is an excellent value redemption and I am very much looking forward to it!

  Elsewhere in Japan I couldn’t make HH points stack up vs their regular 50% off sales for cash bookings

• IanMacK says:

  9 Oct9 October 06:21

  Like your Hong Kong / Beijing trip we did 3 x First return out to Shanghai and back from Hong Kong using 2-4-1 voucher and Gold GL upgrades from CW. The actual price is scary – would we ever pay = somewhere between highly unlikely and never but its the family ‘reward’ for me being away from home on business so often !

  • tony says:

    9 Oct9 October 08:03

    I think this is what needs to be borne in mind when doing these analyses. Similarly have flown the family of 5 in F to Vancouver as a redemption, but would never dream of paying a typical cash fare for that – it was just because we could get 5 in F but not J.

    I see SAS & Air China have a fare LON-ARN-HKG-PEK-ARN-LON for £5300 for 2 adults & 2 kids in J. Once you start to price against that, the value of the miles is rather less impressive and whilst nonstop does give some convenience 1) that’s only for London and 2) it would be difficult for most to say it’s worth £6k…

    • Yuff says:

      9 Oct9 October 08:51

      When I first started looking into points we had the same problem as a family of 4 and it was easier to get seats in F than J at peak times.
      Until I came across HFP I would buy the extra points I needed 🙁
      The cash prices for F are pretty poor value, at peak times, but using Avios I would rather travel in F now, than CW, even if I could get availability.

      • Ronster says:

        9 Oct9 October 15:09

        Good afternoon Yuff.

        I too only fly F using my avios

        It’s the only way I find, that the avios 2-4-1 vouchers actually work out worth while.

        Ronster

      • Polly says:

        9 Oct9 October 18:01

        We too find more F available to Asia, than J…so end up using our 241 that direction. Plus RFS all the time to DUB and an ex Eu positioning flight once a year.

• Steve says:

  9 Oct9 October 06:23

  Great article Rob. Thank you for sharing this.

  What I would also really appreciate would be if you can share a little bit how it’s possible to acquire 1.8 million avios. I mean, I got some good points last year, mostly credit cards, some offers and occasional business trip but still, I am nowhere near even 1 million avios.

  I suppose it’s only possible with mostly business expenses on credit cards and gazillion business flights?

  • Yemi says:

    9 Oct9 October 07:13

    I was going to ask Rob the same question.

  • TGLoyalty says:

    9 Oct9 October 07:26

    Rob also gets lots of referral points from readers signing up to credit cards.

    Still not easy to achieve but it is an opportunity lots of us won’t have.

    • Martin says:

      9 Oct9 October 07:29

      But you don’t get unlimited referrals

      • the real harry1 says:

        9 Oct9 October 07:42

        There are different referral rules: individuals vs credit brokers [Robert Burgess, trading as Head for Points, is regulated and authorised by the Financial Conduct Authority to act as a credit broker.]

        Presumably Raffles has negotiated an arrangement with Amex.

    • Genghis says:

      9 Oct9 October 07:45

      No idea how the referrals work for Raffles but I thought bloggers can get £££ to keep the site “ticking over” 🙂

      Any regular couple can easily make 400k avios a year.

      • Yuff says:

        9 Oct9 October 09:02

        I think Rob took advantage of a couple of loopholes, a few years ago, and earned a gazillion Avios at zero cost.
        He’s written a couple of articles on it, I think one was a Lloyd’s currency loophole from memory and he put 40k through a card, and 40k out again, and earned a million Avios 🙂
        Thinks are a bit tighter now

        • Rob says:

          9 Oct9 October 12:04

          I did indeed. I also got over 1 million from MBNA once.

      • John says:

        9 Oct9 October 09:21

        I guess that his wife and other family members, and maybe Anika (and her family if they are in the UK) also take some referrals

        If I ran a website that got lots of referrals I could handle about 50 a year and all the points would still be available for “us” to use

      • Frankie says:

        9 Oct9 October 17:49

        @Genghis. If it’s not too much effort are you able to tell at a high level how a regular couple can easily get 400k? I could be better at churning but I do well and convert the tesco vouchers but still am a long way off the 400 a year

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 19:09

        His n hers x 2 for Plat, BAPP and SPG pa

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 19:24

        Granted it involves a say a £24k spend but if converted all to avios generates 390k

  • Martin says:

    9 Oct9 October 07:28

    Especially as he isn’t (I believe) a card churner

• TripRep says:

  9 Oct9 October 07:09

  Good piece Rob, I like your pragmatic approach, must be nice having such a large pool of points to not care about redeeming for less than max potential value.

  As an aside, what compensation (EU261?) did you get from Virgin for bumping you off your original flight? Bet a lot of HFP readers would be interested….

  • TripRep says:

    9 Oct9 October 07:19

    ps My most valued redemptions this year was my terrific stay at the Conrad Maldives (well over 1p/point) & the BA CW 241 redemption to get there. I’d calculated approx 3.8p/ Avios on the usual CW fares alone, that’s before £2k refund/compensation for the delays and downgrade.

    I also did another special redemption that money can’t buy, which IMHO I’m not really able to put a point value on.

    • Liz says:

      9 Oct9 October 08:29

      3 days before our recent Virgin trip I logged in to double check flight times and realised our return flight was showing a day earlier than originally booked. We had received an email earlier in the year about a time change and hadn’t noticed the date change. When I called Virgin we were told there had been a computer glitch last Dec and that some flights had been moved in error. Fortunately there were still seats available in PE but we couldn’t get the seats we had originally booked. Just as well I spotted it or else we would have turned up a day late for our flight! Don’t need a panic like that 3 days before a trip.

      • Rob says:

        9 Oct9 October 08:53

        I got nothing off Virgin for being kicked off my flight and onto the crappy A330 an hour later.

    • the real harry1 says:

      9 Oct9 October 10:55

      you have 6 years to claim!

      I think it would count as flight cancellation but re-routing on a similar schedule to the cancelled flight

      =50% of EUR600

      • the real harry1 says:

        9 Oct9 October 10:57

        would take you 10 mins to a) get CWS to confirm it over @ FT/ file the claim

        my nominated charity for the proceeds is GOSH 🙂

      • TripRep says:

        9 Oct9 October 11:38

        Agreed, come on Rob, put the claim in, let’s get a result, otherwise its just us advertising that we are willing to put up with such poor service.

      • Ronster says:

        9 Oct9 October 15:42

        Hi The Real Harry1.

        Hope your well.

        Apologises for an O/T question

        I have a compensation query.

        1) Lets say I was waiting for a plane at my original destination B.My plane arrived late from destination A (Europe) due too bad weather at the departure Airport

        2)I departed From destination B(UK) at 12:50pm instead of 10:50am.

        3)It was scheduled to arrive at destination C(Europe) at 2:10 pm

        4) However due to another bit of bad luck was routed to destination D due to bad weather at designation C

        5)3 hours waiting at destination D(Europe) with no refreshments offered we were herded onto busses.

        6)Arrive at final and original destination C, 9 hours later then we should have and after a 4 hour bus trip.

        The airline turned my EU261 claim down due to bad weather.Though they have not specified which location they are saying( A OR C). However I am convinced that even if my plane had not been re routed from my final destination C to D, that I would not have arrived within the 4 hour time delay period.

        Do I have a leg to stand. Or does any part of this situation including the bad weather at destination A before the plane gets to my departure airport, mean a ZERO chance of EU261?

        PS. When I collected my car and asked the hire car staff about the bad weather , they all looked at me and said all there was a bit of wind but planes were arriving and taking off as per normal.It seamed that only my flights had been delayed….

        I would value your thoughts

        Thank you

        Ronster

      • the real harry1 says:

        9 Oct9 October 16:19

        Hi – sure I will give my thoughts but the real expertise is over here (and that’s where I’m picking up my knowledge/ getting links to cases & law etc)
        https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1812051-2017-ba-compensation-thread-your-guide-regulation-ec261-2004-a.html

        1. Bad weather is certainly a common extraordinary circumstance which means no compo is payable under EC261. Did you get this in writing? – don’t forget each pilot can make his own decision on whether to attempt landing or not, so if there was ‘quite’ bad weather @ C and your pilot decided to divert on that basis, then the fact that other pilots made a different decision doesn’t really help you.

        2. If you ask nicely on that board, giving your exact flight details incl date/ time, then someone will look up the official reason given – they access a paid database I don’t pay for. You would probably be wise to establish the official reason you got diverted to D. Bad weather at A would not be sufficient reason to deny your claim as you took off only 2 hrs late from B.

        3. There’s no compo for parts 1, 2 – what matters is how late you arrive, not depart.

        4. Your airline had a duty of care towards you – you could have claimed the cost of food & drink (not alcohol) for the time you were hanging about/ getting delayed 9 hrs. You can still claim that now (yep I know hindsight is a wonderful thing etc).

        5. You lost me slightly at one point – you took off 2 hrs late, so why do you say you would have arrived @ C 4 hrs late if you hadn’t been diverted?

        6. Bad weather at A is not good reason to turn down your claim for B—>C in itself – airlines should make provision for this kind of disruption, eg by having a substitute aircraft at B – however, it’s irrelevant as you only took off 2 hrs late. But is the airline cheating perhaps? – was there another reason B—>C got diverted to D but the airline mixing in bad weather @ A? That’s where the other board can help.

      • Polly says:

        9 Oct9 October 17:34

        Ronster,

        You are not talking about a Finn air delay are you, they lied about bad weather recently to refuse paying out. The chap over on BT is fighting a similar one, thought it might be you! He actually tracked the flights and found they couldn’t be bothered getting a plane out from their own base in HEL. It’s still ongoing, l think…def worth a challenge. I was lost too by the time we got to A and D!

      • the real harry1 says:

        9 Oct9 October 18:25

        That compo thread is the best thread on FT! 🙂

        For anybody who can’t read all 1525 posts (in 2017), here’s my summary: many airlines lie and prevaricate to avoid paying compo – BA is one of the worst – this is actually a good thing because (my guess) 90% of claimants go away empty-handed & drop their claim. This leaves a decent sized pot of compo for people prepared to threaten legal action under EC261, which is when the airlines generally pay up.

      • Ronster says:

        9 Oct9 October 22:42

        Good evening to Harry and Polly.

        Hopefully this is the right reply box to your kind help.

        I will answer in your numbered formatted order Harry.

        1)Yes I have it confirmed in writing by email, blaming the weather. However its is not clear if it was because of the delay from location A (Airport from where my actual flight was arriving from), before collecting Passengers at my location B.Or if it was because on leaving B we (apparantly),encountered bad weather(according to the pilot) on approach to my destination C.

        2)I will look at the board.Many Thanks.

        3) Understood.ManyThanks

        4)Understood and I thought as much.

        5)Sorry Harry. I got mixed up here. Yes we left Location B at 12:05pm (1 hours 10 minutes later than the schedualed (10:45am). We could not land at my destination C due too bad weather,(schedualled for a 2:10pm arrival) and so we landed at destination D at 4:52pm.

        6)I now agree that on leaving location B and flying to location C, would not have meant I would have arrived 4 hours late, even with the 1 hour 10 minutes delay in the plane leaving location B.

        However I too am suspicious that the airline is hiding behind a “bad weather” reason, for why we did not land at destination C. Especially when it was only this airline that had issues landing?!

        Apparently the ” bit of wind” that did not pose any problems to other airlines landing, lasted only for 10 minutes.So why only landing at destination D was the plane not refuelled and sent on its way to destination C? Instead we then had to wait 3 hours before being put onto buses for a 4 hour trip…..Surely it would have been faster and more economical to get us back in the air?

        Is there a web source online that I could look and search where that plane that dumped me at location D actually flew too? I suppose this would help if I had the actual plan’s registration number, which I do not? Can you still work it out via the actually flight number? Or would I have to post it on the link you kindly sent me?

        Many thanks to Harry and hope to reply you with some drinks at the Xmas bash.

        R

• Jamainky says:

  9 Oct9 October 07:36

  Morning Rob – thanks for yet another interesting analysis.

  Similar to earlier comments, are you willing to indicate how many miles you actually have and whether you take steps to add to the balances (particularly Avios and Amex) on a regular basis please? This would help contextualise why you’ve made some of the redemptions.

  Further, do you do any type of bankroll management, e.g. only have upto 10% of your available miles redeemed at any one time?

  • Genghis says:

    9 Oct9 October 07:42

    On the latter, remember points can be devalued at any moment.

    • Rob says:

      9 Oct9 October 08:55

      I tend to use points whenever possible unless it is clearly a bad deal. It is mainly IHG hotels where I pay cash unnecessarily. Whilst it is touch and go given the current Government, I still have slightly more faith in cash rather than Avios to retain value.

• Scott says:

  9 Oct9 October 07:56

  I’m down to my last 25000 at present after blowing probably 300k this year!

  Blew a few recently on HKG-LHR flights, JFK-HKG, a few RFS etc.
  Still reluctant to blow too many on some flights i.e. Is 75000 for CW from HKG-LHR worth it for me over 19500 Avios for economy? I’ve survived Y before and could the 55k difference be better used elsewhere?

  Suppose if I played the game better than I do now, I could easily make high 100,000’s a year rather than the paltry 200-300k I get now.

  Going to try and max out my Tesco points next year so that’s around 290k.
  Few more long hauls and they pull in around 10k for Y up to 24k for CW.
  Not always flying BA so not earning Avios there.

  Hopefully, another triple Avios bonus will appear as I got things like ex-EU to SIN for £474 and 56k Avios earned from that.

  Could possibly use Rocketmiles etc. a bit more to earn extra Avios but I’m swayed a bit too much towards Hilton and IHG loyalty schemes to be honest (unless there is a decent price differential)

  More use of gift cards. Only recently started buying these and whilst I only save a few £ here and there, it all adds up and makes Avios earned that bit cheaper.

  • Genghis says:

    9 Oct9 October 08:04

    What’s your gift card route?

    • Scott says:

      9 Oct9 October 08:16

      Just some work scheme that gives 3% off Tesco, 2.5% off amazon, 8% off Argos etc.
      I know there are better options out there and I’m going to see what’s what in the new year.

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 08:27

        Thanks. There’s nothing much better than that at the moment. I miss working for a larger company and getting such offers. Made up for with much larger bonuses though.

      • MarcB says:

        9 Oct9 October 09:11

        We have similar at our work, but can only pay by debit card – very frustrating

      • Tinder says:

        9 Oct9 October 12:20

        Good MasterCard prepaid gift card offer at Wilko atm. They accept Amex too. https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/50-mastercard-for-4586-instore-wilko-2809179

  • Drav says:

    9 Oct9 October 08:31

    well done on surviving Y class.

• Stu N says:

  9 Oct9 October 08:03

  So if Avios = 1.3p, 1 Starpoint = 1.5p and 1 Honors point = 0.33p, doesn’t this make Amex to hotel conversions poor value?

  It’s 1:1 for Avios which preserves the 1.3p.

  SPG is 2:1 so only 0.75p and Hilton is 1:2 so 0.66p. Do people really collect hotel points via Amex?

  • Genghis says:

    9 Oct9 October 08:12

    Yes.

    1) SPG preserves the pluripotentiality of the points.

    2) I converted to SPG last time. I’ll be getting the Marriott travel package this week, 162k avios and 7 nights in a cat 1-5.

    I got c.(92k MRs) 138k of the 270k Marriotts needed this time from Amex, that’s 51%, or 82k avios of what I’ll be getting back. The 92k MRs would have got me 92k avios. I’m happy therefore losing 10k avios to help towards the 7 nights.

    • Alan says:

      9 Oct9 October 08:49

      I’ve never understood the Marriott travel packages. But then, as I don’t have an SPG account I guess it doesn’t matter!

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 08:53

        What don’t you understand?

      • Alan says:

        9 Oct9 October 10:56

        It’s the whole concept to be honest. I should just read the HFP article again, I’m sure its very well written.

        TBH, as I don’t have an SPG account (and don’t use their hotels) I think I just closed my mind to it.

        Would it work for anyone not using their hotels for business/leisure? I only really collect airline miles.

        • Rob says:

          9 Oct9 October 11:53

          The concept is simple enough. You can redeem x points for a) a voucher for 7-night hotel stay and b) a pile of miles.

          The miles are dumped in your account immediately. The voucher is good for a year.

          The only thing that tends to confuse people is that you don’t need to use the miles for the holiday you book using the hotel. It is two separate transactions. Marriott write it up as saying “get one of these and you’ll get your room and the miles you need” but in reality the two parts of the award are not connected.

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 11:50

        The travel package is only good if you want to spend 7 days in the same hotel. Mrs G likes relaxing breaks (and as I’m getting older I appreciate doing nothing) so we won’t struggle. Others who like moving around all the time – me when I was younger – it’s not as good, clearly.

    • xcalx says:

      9 Oct9 October 09:24

      I thought it was 7 night voucher + 120,000 Airline miles for 270k Marriott is there a Avios bonus on ? I am waiting for an Alaska bonus. Also if you can’t use the 7 night voucher you can “sell ” it back to Marriott for 45k Marriott (15k SPG)

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 10:35

        35% bonus on currently
        https://headforpoints.com/2017/09/23/avios-35-bonus-on-hotel-transfers/

      • Scallder says:

        9 Oct9 October 11:13

        xcalx – I recently converted mime to Alaska. I did a (quick) internet search to see if Alaska had previously done any conversion bonuses for hotels within past couple of years and I couldn’t find any. I’d value 120k Alaska at more than 162k Avios anyway so was happy to convert but just to let you let I couldn’t find any prior examples of them doing one.

    • ankomonkey says:

      9 Oct9 October 10:10

      Genghis, are you still planning the same hotel redemption you’d previously mentioned? I got the 270k travel package around a month ago, have my 162k Avios and a 7 night cat1-5 e-cert. My plan all along was the same hotel as you, for next summer. My dates never opened up and about 2 weeks ago they pulled redemptions for 2018, with speculation the property’s category will rise. Depending on when you plan to go, you MAY need a few more Marriott/SPG points!

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 10:37

        Yes. That same hotel. But we’re planning on starting a family next year and with zika risk – albeit v small – may have to change to Domes (and top up with a few more Marriotts)

    • Stu N says:

      9 Oct9 October 16:00

      I guess makes sense if you are churning cards and have to park the points somewhere.

  • Liz says:

    9 Oct9 October 08:43

    Yes me too – I’ve converted our MR pts from Gold/Platinum churns for 2 of the last 3 years to HH to save up for 10 days in Hawaii for a future trip. Last year I used our the MR pts for Kris Flyer miles for one way from SIN-BNE. I get plenty of Avios via BAPP, Lloyds, Tesco and other offers so decided to convert the MR pts to HH points instead. With just a handul of,HH paid stays and using erewards we now have 500k HH saved. Hopefully when we do redeem them we will get good value.

    • Genghis says:

      9 Oct9 October 08:48

      That’s s lot of surveys, Liz 🙂

      • Liz says:

        9 Oct9 October 08:53

        Not that many surveys! Mostly MR pts from churns. We started off just churning Gold then I started following your Platinum churn strategy a couple of years ago – it soon adds up! I don’t buy HH points either.

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 10:40

        It’s no secret. Just churning his n here every 6 months.

      • Liz says:

        9 Oct9 October 11:51

        @Genghis – did you do your wee Barra trip at the weekend?

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 12:05

        Yes. It was fantastic. Really enjoyed the flight over even though it was delayed by 1.5 hours and meant we only had 1.5 hours on the island but we got a good whistle stop tour, bought some nice fudge and had the hot smoked salmon at the airport cafe. Highly recommended experience for all HfPers.

        We then spent time in the Highlands – we definitely want to return, perhaps next time taking the West Highland Railway. We’ve had some great food in both Glasgow and Edinburgh. Aizle in Edinburgh last night was particularly noteworthy and a bargain compared to London prices.

        Now relaxing in our Edinburgh hotel, tired after the last few days before our flight back to City later.

        Thanks to the Scottish contingent, including you Liz, who gave me some great ideas for the trip 🙂

        • Alan says:

          10 Oct10 October 03:35

          Glad you enjoyed, Genghis – next time we’ll need to have a wee catch-up drink! I’m in the States just now, made use of Lloyds voucher and enjoyed new CW service to JFK 😛

      • Liz says:

        9 Oct9 October 12:46

        Glad you had a great weekend! We plan on booking the Jacobite train over the Glenfinnan viaduct next year!

      • Stu N says:

        9 Oct9 October 16:06

        Glad you enjoyed Aizle, Genghis. Was there on Saturday night and probably the best meal we have had in there.

      • Genghis says:

        9 Oct9 October 16:27

        @Stu N Aizle was fantastic. You’re lucky to have such a restaurant. I was at Michael O’Hare’s Man Behind the Curtain in Leeds week before last and Aizle was much better IMO.

    • Stu_N says:

      9 Oct9 October 19:25

      Yes there’s a great food scene in Edinburgh. Four or five Michelin starred restaurants and a lot of places that are nipping at their heels. Restaurant Castle Terrace should IMO have a star (it did for a few years, but lost it and has never regained it which I can’t really understand). Aizle is deservedly doing well and is great value for the quality of food. Also Norn, Timberyard and (I have heard) Gardener’s Cottage are doing very good things.

• RK says:

  9 Oct9 October 08:41

  Does credit broker status allow unlimited referrals?

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