American Express suspends its relationship with Curve Card, just 36 hours after launch

This article is closed to new comments. Feel free to ask your question in the HfP forums.

• Vasco says:

  30 Jan30 January 12:59

  OT: Got a Flybe email saying they’re ditching Avios effective April 30.

• Mikeact says:

  30 Jan30 January 13:20

  Come back Supercard..all is forgiven.

  • Mr Dee says:

    30 Jan30 January 13:53

    I don’t think supercard will ever be beate, they were super unorganised but the card worked

    • John says:

      30 Jan30 January 13:59

      And they also lost thousands of pounds/dollars/whatever, I and others each withdrew £25K worth of cash for zero fees at the visa exchange rates.

• Ian M says:

  30 Jan30 January 13:30

  Seems hard to believe Curve would have rolled this out and launched to the public on Monday if they knew there was no agreement in place with Amex. I know Curve don’t have the best track record but making a move like that is commercial suicide.

  Too many people just want to abuse Curve for manufactured spend and openly talk about it on sites such as this. Curve are fully aware of that and seem to be happy with it. I’m sure that is one (of many) of the reasons Amex are unwilling to go ahead with this.

  The top up model for Amex use is interesting. It means Amex lose all data on card use. So that didn’t make sense to me. It means customers could use their card for what would be very obvious manufactured spend routes without Amex knowing! And I’m sure Amex are not confident that Curve would do anything about it themselves because they promote this product directly to the market of people that we most likely to use it for manufactured spend!

  • daftboy says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:12

    A very sensible assessment of the situation I think

    The feedback cycle between loophole identified-exploited-closed is getting ever shorter, in part because of the explosion of general audience sites like this one which disseminate this information ever more widely, as opposed to a few years back when this stuff was all much more niche

    And to be clear I think HFP is a fantastic resource for those interested in reward schemes and frequent flyer programmes and one I visit every day, although I don’t go in for card churning etc – and I’ve never bought a HP ink cartridge in my life!

  • Drennan Duplooy says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:17

    The communications error between Curve and Amex is the most interesting factor here. Hopefully all will be revealed!

  • Steve says:

    30 Jan30 January 16:58

    I think they probably figured the risk of commerical suicide is worth it given they’re struggling to close a series B funding round and are burning cash quickly.

    • Lady London says:

      30 Jan30 January 18:39

      + 1. I haven;t had time to read further in the comments here but it seems the crunch has come about due to extreme sensitivity and fast feedback loops – not to say trigger-finger-overreaction – as to anything that could be used for ML.

      Such a pity as it was a useful service.
      And if Curve can;t do it and Amex can’;t do it, there’s plenty who can.

      Some more intelligence to providers on real financial transaction processing needs that might actually look like ML, but actually aren’t ML, is needed so we don’t have this sort of harmful waste of everyone’s time due to financial providers’ overreaction.

• Anna says:

  30 Jan30 January 13:53

  I’ve never worked in financial services but even I thought it was a good idea to stick with the free card to start with and put through a few immediate payments (i.e. not keep any money in the wallet), and see how it all panned out. As many people have pointed out, Curve can be flaky!

• Anna says:

  30 Jan30 January 14:31

  A website called Tech Crunch has posted this statement from Amex, sorry if it’s appeared here already!

  “We participated in a limited Curve beta test in which we explored enabling Card Members to load funds onto an e-wallet using their Amex Card in the Curve app. A very small number of Amex Card Members participated in the test. Based on the results, we communicated to Curve that we would not participate in the further roll out of Curve because of concerns related to the overall American Express Card Member experience. Subsequently we terminated our contract with them.”

  A tiny bit more than Rob got, and it sounds as though they’re not going to back track if they are talking in terms of terminating a contract (which presumably they have legitimate grounds to do).

  • Shoestring says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:45

    Amex wouldn’t have signed a contract with Curve that they *couldn’t* terminate at will – sounds like the required notice period was zero days

    • Mr Dee says:

      30 Jan30 January 17:11

      Agree, I am wondering how many people phoned Amex to about Curve over the 2 days, I bet a lot of people got confused for sure!

• Richard says:

  30 Jan30 January 14:36

  I just took the precautionary measure of extracting the last of the remaining funds in my Curve Amex wallet into Amazon gift credit.

  The transaction seemed to go through immediately (and my Curve wallet is now showing a £0 balance), but Amazon have just emailed to say that the top up was cancelled due to a card decline. So now the money is in limbo! And when an Amex card has a £0 balance on the Curve app, it assumes that you’ve never used it before and only gives you an opportunity to top it up – i.e. you can’t look at recent transactions to see what’s going on.

  When it rains it pours…

  • Stuart says:

    30 Jan30 January 14:50

    Does it not show on the timeline tab?

    • Richard says:

      30 Jan30 January 15:05

      Good point, quite right – and yes, it does. Still no explanation of where the money is though — Curve thinks it’s gone and Amazon doesn’t think that it arrived!

      It’s a small enough amount that I can be sanguine about, but it’s not a good look.

  • nick says:

    30 Jan30 January 14:51

    No jokes- but I just came from Tesco to use my £10 amex wallet balance- and the card was declined!!!!

    • TheSkintTraveller says:

      30 Jan30 January 15:11

      Emptied my top up balance this morning.

    • Mr Dee says:

      30 Jan30 January 17:13

      the CEO needed to buy the office a jar of coffee, I am sure he’ll put the money back soon

  • Obi says:

    30 Jan30 January 14:52

    Ouch.

    You were meant to go £1 below balance to pass Amazon verification.

  • Big Dave says:

    31 Jan31 January 07:59

    it should go back to the wallet – the wallet is curves and amex not involved anymroe – I had a refund come through it took a day but they refunded twice in error – I owned up but it took them weeks to make the adjustment.

  • Alex Sm says:

    3 Feb3 February 22:35

    I transferred £70 to Amazon last night and it went through ok
    The only snag is that I have two transactions displayed on Curve: £1 and £70
    But £1 didn’t make its way to my Amazon account – is that a fee?

    • Alan says:

      3 Feb3 February 22:49

      No it’s the standard Amazon check for a new card, will clear in about a week.

      • Alex Sm says:

        4 Feb4 February 13:12

        With Curve you never know… Still worried. Now had to return the suit I bought in a rush and I am not sure that the refund back to Curve Amex wallet will be processed smoothly

      • Genghis says:

        4 Feb4 February 13:25

        And when Alan says the £1 will clear, he means be refunded back to Curve, not added to Amazon.

        • Alan says:

          4 Feb4 February 13:29

          Indeed I do 😛

      • Alex Sm says:

        4 Feb4 February 17:56

        I guess I don’t have much choice other than wait and see…

    • EwanG says:

      4 Feb4 February 16:00

      @Alex – hopefully all will be fine, just be patient!!!
      I had an eBay purchase which the seller cancelled. I’d paid using PayPal on a Curve card linked back to my IHG card. Transaction cancelled on 22 Jan, refund appeared immediately in my PayPal account and on 29 Jan I received the notification and email from Curve about the refund, visible on the IHG account a couple of days later.

      • Alex Sm says:

        4 Feb4 February 17:56

        I would not worry about the Curve purchase funded through a link to an IHG card as much as I am worried about a purchase funded through now infamous #BringAmexbacktoCurve wallet…

• Myer says:

  30 Jan30 January 14:42

  Why do people feel it necessary to abuse such products and more so why do sites like this promote such activity! Churning credit cards, cancelling Amex cards once they have obtained the points. Abuse of promotions such as the recent Iberia and Avis and Economist.
  Such offers are aimed at bona fide customers not a bunch of scammers, such offenders should bow their heads in shame and by association so should this website!

  • Anna says:

    30 Jan30 January 14:47

    Words such as “scammers” and “offenders” are potentially slanderous, Myer. No-one on here has done anything illegal (that they’ve admitted to on HFP anyway!), and I’m sure huge financial institutions are more than capable of enforcing their own terms and conditions if they want to.

    • Myer says:

      30 Jan30 January 17:32

      Anna, I think you meant to say libellous, slander is a false spoken statement, whereas libel is an untrue defamatory statement that is made in writing. It is important to get your facts straight.

      • Bazza says:

        30 Jan30 January 19:02

        It’s the modern society of selfishness and greedy people. And of course a low self esteemed and the then the need to be recognised so boast about it on here

      • Doug M says:

        30 Jan30 January 21:44

        What! You gain all this from what?

  • SimonW says:

    30 Jan30 January 14:48

    What is this Avis promotion you speak of? I feel like I have missed a chance to abuse it. Spill the beans please.

    • Alex says:

      30 Jan30 January 14:50

      Lol, good one SimonW

    • Allycat says:

      30 Jan30 January 14:52

      lol

      • Gandalf says:

        30 Jan30 January 15:05

        “and more so why do sites like this promote such activity! Churning credit cards”.. Quite simply because he receives a commission for each card taken out through the site. It doesn’t matter about the fallout because he already has the $$ from it.

        • Rob says:

          30 Jan30 January 15:24

          HFP never discuses card churning in the main articles. There is a lot of it in the comments, but not in the articles. But apart from that teeny tiny fact ….

      • AlanPartridge says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:05

        Article – New year, new credit card? Learn which Amex cards you can get, based on the cards you have.

        If it looks like a duck..

      • TripRep says:

        30 Jan30 January 22:54

        AP – they let you out of North Norfolk?

      • Alan Partridge says:

        30 Jan30 January 23:08

        Yes, I’m driving to Dundee in my bare feet. Jurassic Park!

    • roberto says:

      30 Jan30 January 14:55

      Some one won a million avios for renting a car in Spain.
      Was a terrible thing , all those airmiles and they paid next to nothing for the rental. They did not even need the car , was just in it for the guaranteed18000 Avios advertised in the Avis promotion.
      Scandalous behavior
      Truly abismal
      🙂

      • Alex W says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:52

        Guilty as charged, €48 Euro car rental sat on the driveway earning 18,000 Avios. Perfectly adhered to the T&C’s on that one!

      • Worzel says:

        30 Jan30 January 17:04

        @ roberto- just wondering whether you’ve managed to use them up yet 🙂 .

      • mutley says:

        30 Jan30 January 18:55

        Just like your spelling Roberto.

      • NigelT says:

        30 Jan30 January 22:29

        What’s abysmal is your spelling!

  • callum says:

    30 Jan30 January 14:51

    Wow, what an utter load of ignorant rubbish!

    1. Most of the things you describe are not “abuse”. Following the terms and conditions of the offer is simply using the offer – if the company didn’t want it used that way, they should not have allowed it in the first place.

    2. Amex is aware of, and facilitates, this behaviour. With enormous ease, they could stop card churning overnight yet have actively made the decision not to do so. Your characterisation of that as being “abuse” is therefore nonsensical.

    3. I partially agree with your Economist comment – what this site promotes with that is akin to tax fraud in my eyes. I fully believe HMRC will say the exact same thing, the advice here relies on you lying to HMRC and pretending that you need it for your business when you actually don’t. Iberia and Avis designed their promotions to be used this way however, if they don’t like it then they shouldn’t have done it.

    • Michael Jennings says:

      30 Jan30 January 19:27

      Amex must lose money from those people who churn cards regularly. My assumption, though, is that the amount of money they gain from being constandly discussed (both in articles and comments) and therefore promoted on this site is worth more to them than those losses. As callum says above, they could stop the churning overnight if they wanted to. I’m not a particularly aggressive Amex churner, but I do tend to rotate through their products (normally having a couple at a time), cancel just before annual fees become due, and then sign up for something else that gets me a new sign up bonus once or twice a year. Do I feel guilty about this? No. Do Amex mind me doing ths? I really doubt it.

    • Alex Sm says:

      2 Feb2 February 15:32

      Actually, Curve when it launched was meant for businesses, not individuals (like BA OB scheme), but they don’t enforce it so how can you blame people for using these?

  • will says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:02

    The bottom line is that these corporations make offers with the intention that once they get you signed up (often for a loss) that you will continue to use and subscribe to their service for many years to come and they will profit from this.

    If you term a customer acting within the law and doing the bare minimum required to trigger those offers a “scammer” then you should also, for consistency, refer to the offers in the first instance as “bribes”.

    There’s a reasonably convincing argument to suggest that credit card companies should not be allowed to offer sign up bonuses or rewards on spend in the best interest of the customer because lets face it if credit cards were run with simply reasonable profit and competition was perfect (in the economic definition of it) then there should not be enough money in the industry to pay for rewards.

    While they exist I blame no one for taking full advantage of them and you can then even argue that people “abusing” offers is acting as a brake on exuberant offers which is the market taking shape.

    • Polly says:

      30 Jan30 January 22:51

      Actually, rob mentioned that only about 5% of card holders churn. Worth it for amex as they still have 95% who earn them millions on going…

  • Genghis says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:17

    Rubbish. I comply with the law and all terms and conditions. These corporates are big boys – if they want to make an offer, savvy consumers will take them up on it. If they don’t like it, they need to change the terms of the offer. There’s also a lot in this game between terms and what happens in reality. These companies if they really cared could implement some proper controls to prevent / detect adherence to such terms.

    • Neil says:

      30 Jan30 January 15:25

      No point arguing with these Trolls Genghis! HeadforPoints appears to be taking on water since many folks spent £150 on the metal card. The other 50% appear to have loaded £2k plus from their Amex cards and now may lose that money forever.

      I will let this blow over and wait for the normal readers to return! The fact that this site or it’s readers are being called scammers says it all.

      • Rob says:

        30 Jan30 January 15:32

        No-one will lose any money from their e-wallet balance, I am sure. Curve is backed by Santander and other big boys, remember.

      • Mark2 says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:40

        My grandmother used to say “A fool and his money are soon parted”.

      • Hilarious says:

        30 Jan30 January 17:31

        Rob – your line is hilarious “I am sure” are you underwriting any losses?

        And do you genuinely think Santander are underwriting people’s online Curve wallets???

        • Rob says:

          30 Jan30 January 18:18

          I simply don’t see any scenario where this could happen. You’re assuming the money isn’t ring fenced. You’re assuming there is no chargeback protection. You’re assuming there is no regulatory compensation. You’re assuming Curve is about to go bust which, as it has no debt, is unlikely (it might run out of money and not be able to raise more but that is a slow process). You’re assuming the shareholders won’t tidy it up for reputational reasons if it did go bust. The chance of all these things happening is minute.

    • EwanG says:

      30 Jan30 January 15:37

      100% agree with Genghis. Corporates are also well resourced in terms of developing propositions, making sure product owners go through layers of bureaucracy including compliance, legal etc before being launched. Sometimes they get it wrong and it gets pulled and/or refined – just look at the 10k miles for taking out a new Virgin Money Life Insurance policy – that was not properly defined or sustainable at the outset but was adjusted pretty quickly.

  • Mary Berry says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:36

    He’s got a point in all honesty, though scammers is clearly the wrong term to use as people are making use of readily available offers within the Ts and Cs. A better descriptor would have been ‘greedy and grasping individuals’, but that’s just my opinion.

    • Grant says:

      30 Jan30 January 15:40

      I think you misspelt savvy

      • Mary Berry says:

        30 Jan30 January 15:48

        You could dress it up as that, but at the end of the day the motivation is greed (and mainly from people you have more than enough already).
        And before you get your knickers in more of a twist, I’m saying this as someone who participates in this too. It’s an honest observation – of myself and others. Most on here though are so entitled they they’ll be unable to see or acknowledge it as such… so let’s just keep on dressing it up as savvy shall we 🙄

      • Grant says:

        30 Jan30 January 15:54

        My butler irons my underwear, I’ll have you know 😉

    • Anna says:

      30 Jan30 January 15:51

      Why would someone be greedy and grasping for legally collecting loyalty points, when they wouldn’t be considered so for collecting, say, valuable antiques or stamps? Hopefully your cakes are better than you logic, Mary!

      • Mary Berry says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:11

        Buying flights that are never used, withdrawing cash through curve to trigger points and pay it back in again, paying credit card bill’s with other credit cards… this isn’t ‘normal’ (as in usual) collection of loyalty points, it’s not ‘normal’ behaviour. What underpins that is greed, plain and simple.
        I also didn’t mention legality or otherwise, in any sense, so unsure why you need to make that point. I’m also at a loss as to how you think an anology with collecting antiques or stamps works at all (it doesn’t), so I hope your cakes are better than your logic too, Anna.

      • Andy says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:21

        Oh Mary Berry you would have a fit if you saw what some of the American bloggers get up to….

      • R.P. McMurphy says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:31

        Like putting inane pictures on Instagram with hashtag #lifestyle whilst arguing about the merits of Krug vs Dom? Hardly an example to aspire to.

      • Patrick says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:34

        Mary, none of that is abuse or a scam or greed. Just using the rules to their advantage. Now you may come with the “spirit” argument, but since the “spirit” of the credit card industry is basically to rip off poor people by charging sky high interest rates / fees, I am not sure where you would be going with this. below a few points:

        – Paying a credit card balance with another is exactly the same as a balance transfer, just that for the latter you get charged nicely while doing so
        – Withdrawing cash on a credit card: From a practical perspective, that is in no way worse than spending it. I really don’t get the fuss about it, except for…. it removes one of the fantastic rip off strategies by credit card companies
        – Buying flights that are never used: actually you can argue that is potentially better for the word (well the environment at least) and it is sort of tax paid for by airlines to airports / governments. probably the most social redistribution of revenue ever done by an airline…

        I am wondering if you work in credit card industry, because what you call “abuse” is actually more about reversing the rip-off’s of the industry at present.
        And as said before, all of this is simple marketing and the companies are usually aware of what they are doing…

      • Bonglim says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:38

        There are different shades of grey and some of them might be close to the line.

        But churning credit cards in not one of them. I am fairly certain Amex, overall, make money from the readers of this website. They have made a decision int he USA to not allow churning (and instead offer much bigger sign up bonuses). Then in the UK they have decided that allowing someone to reapply for an Amex card after 6 months is better for their business.

        They have not made that decision by accident or as an omission. I have churned credit cards time and time again. I also put well over 100k through my cards per year (inc my partner). I also have convinced 6 of my work partners to take out American Express cards (I am pretty sure they do not churn them) – and each of them puts through over 100k/ year. And a few other friends who put through smaller amounts.

        Anyway, I don’t feel guilty about my card churning. I don’t even see it as greedy. i see it as an appropriate reward for the business I have sent, and continue to send their way.

      • Chris says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:40

        To call the collectors greedy instead of the credit card companies making their money charging interest and late fees is comical! Get a life.

      • R.P. McMurphy says:

        30 Jan30 January 16:51

        But the few that abuse the offers to their maximum extent usually bring about the shutting down of them for those who don’t. Personally I don’t care either way. Maybe it should just be a race to the bottom. I do get the feeling though if there were a bunch of airmiles dropped on the street, there would be some ready to trample anything in their way to get at them, akin to a scene from Zombie apocalypse.

      • Anna says:

        30 Jan30 January 17:02

        You absolutely brought up the issue of legality, Mary Berry, (if indeed that is who you are) by calling HFP readers “offenders” and “scammers”. Ad you haven’t explained how collecting one thing is different from another. Some people collect antiques to make a profit, not for any loftier purpose, so I think the analogy is quite appropriate.

      • Mary Berry says:

        30 Jan30 January 17:16

        Dear Anna. Please can you read these posts properly. I have never called people “scammers” or “offenders”, that was somebody else at the top of this thread – Myer. Indeed, I actually argued against his use of those terms if you read my post. Don’t worry, I won’t accuse you of slander like you did him.

        You clearly don’t like my inference that greed is a driver for this – that is your choice and you are entitled to your opinion. And I am also entitled to mine (and PS, in that vein, your analogy still doesn’t work).

        At least we can agree on one thing, throwing out the milk is indeed an abuse – it should be used for making my delicious cakes.
        Love Mary.

      • Nurse Ratched says:

        30 Jan30 January 18:22

        R.P. McMurphy – excellent!

      • Chief Bromden says:

        30 Jan30 January 19:10

        –

    • Lee says:

      30 Jan30 January 16:42

      I just threw out a bottle of milk that I bought but never used, am I abusing the system?

      • Mary Berry says:

        30 Jan30 January 17:01

        I wouldn’t have thought so, but it might mean you’re a baby? And one that didn’t have a toy to hand.

      • Anna says:

        30 Jan30 January 17:02

        Yes, that is not what the cow intended it for!

  • Mr Dee says:

    30 Jan30 January 17:14

    Bet you hate these people that sell on eBay for a profit…

    • Mary Berry says:

      30 Jan30 January 17:22

      What? Could you provide us with more of a data point?
      I have a lovely ebay store selling my cakes and wares all at a profit, and I’m pretty sure I don’t hate myself for it.

      • Mr Dee says:

        30 Jan30 January 20:47

        profiteering, how shameful!

      • Mary Berry says:

        30 Jan30 January 21:48

        You need to decide what side of the fence you’re on dear. You appear to be all over the place on this.

• Benylin says:

  30 Jan30 January 14:56

  OT:
  From FT just now:
  Executive at payments giant suspected of using forged contracts
  A senior Wirecard executive was last year suspected of using forged and backdated contracts in a string of suspicious transactions that raise questions about the integrity of the accounting at one of Europe’s rare technology success stories.

  An internal presentation described potentially fraudulent money flows at Wirecard, a fintech group valued at €20bn, which last year surpassed Deutsche Bank in market capitalisation and supplanted Commerzbank in Germany’s prestigious Dax 30 index. The company has denied any wrongdoing.

  • Pangolin says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:17

    The FinTech success stories continue apace!

    PS it’s probably worth a lot less than 20bn by now

  • Rob Walker says:

    30 Jan30 January 15:30

    It’s not that OT – Wirecard issue Curve’s cards 🙂

    • Benylin says:

      30 Jan30 January 16:09

      @Rob yes forgot to add “but Curve related”

      • John says:

        30 Jan30 January 18:13

        But this thread is about Curve so not OT…?

This article is closed to new comments. Feel free to ask your question in the HfP forums.