Maximise your Avios, air miles and hotel points

Should you be concerned about losing your Avios and Virgin Points to bankruptcy?

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Is there a risk of losing your Avios points and Virgin Flying Club points if the airlines go bankrupt?  And is it even a realistic possibility?

To be honest, this isn’t an article I wanted to write.  However, I am being inundated with emails from readers who are concerned about the value of their points being at risk so it only seems fair to address it.  I hope that my many friends at Avios Group, BA, Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Group Loyalty Company take it in good grace.

I have a lot of skin in this game

Let me put my own cards on the table.  AwardWallet (sign up here, it’s free) shows that I am currently sitting on 6.1 million points across my family members.  Assuming 1p per point of value if spent well, this is £60,000 of value which is potentially at risk.

Avios wing 14

In theory I should be concerned.  However, ‘only’ 2.5 million of these are realistically at risk.  I define ‘at risk’ as meaning they are airline miles.

I don’t see ANY risk to my hotel points since the hotel chains are now all asset-lite businesses which own virtually no hotels and employ comparatively few staff.  IHG, for example, reported a 54% operating profit margin in 2019.  It throws off so much cash that it literally has no idea what to do with it.  Since 2014 IHG has given $3.6 billion back to shareholders ON TOP of their usual dividends.  They are going to have a difficult year, and may need to delay any loan repayments due this year, but it won’t get worse than that.  Occupancy rates in China are already looking strong again after lockdown was ended.

I don’t see any risk to American Express Membership Rewards points either.  Amex isn’t going anywhere in a hurry.

That still means, of course, that I have £25,000 of value ‘at risk’.  Should you – can you? – bail out?

I’m not, for clarity.

Avios wing 12

Should you cash out your Avios balance?

No.

The obvious reason is that IAG is sitting on around €9 billion of liquidity.  If things get so bad that IAG goes bankrupt then we will pretty much be at the end of the world as we know it, living in caves, and your Avios will be the least of your worries.

To be fair, I should highlight the fact that British Airways has recently had its debt downgraded to ‘junk’ status although this report assumes that IAG would let BA, its biggest operation sink in order to save the rest of the group.  In reality, Virgin Atlantic, Norwegian and easyJet will collapse long before British Airways and, by then, the Government would have no choice but to act.

Let’s be more practical for a minute.

I generally value an Avios at 1p and, as my ‘what is an Avios worth?’ article shows, you should actually do a lot better.

If you want to cash out now in panic, however, you obviously won’t be booking BA flights which is where the best value is usually found.

There are other issues too:

you can’t realistically book partner flights.  It is likely that tickets on, say, Qatar Airways would be cancelled if IAG went bankrupt as Qatar Airways would not be paid.

you can’t realistically book hotels using Avios.  As the hotel won’t be paid until after your stay, your room will almost certainly be cancelled if IAG disappears.

the same goes for ‘experiences’ rewards and Avis car hire rewards

Assuming that you don’t book a hotel on Avios for a stay over the next month, the ONLY easy way to cash out Avios TODAY, with 100% certainty of receiving something, is to order a pile of wine via Laithwaites via this page.  The order is executed immediately and you’ll have the champagne, wine or beer within a couple of days.

It’s a terrible deal though, as is redeeming Avios for hotels or car hire.

You are getting around 0.5p per point, compared to 1p+ if you eventually redeem them for flights in premium cabins.  Redeeming in panic and losing AT LEAST half the value of your points is not smart, especially given the low risk of IAG hitting critical trouble.

Should you cash out your Virgin Flying Club points?

My answer is the same for Virgin Flying Club points, with caveats.  Non-flight redemptions generally come out at under 0.5p per point so you’re losing a lot of value.

There are two caveats here though:

the risk of Virgin Atlantic going bust is substantially higher than with IAG.  It is compounded by the fact that Delta, its minority shareholder, is restricted by European rules in what it can do since it is already at its 49% ownership limit.   The sums required are far beyond what Sir Richard Branson could rustle up.  The Government has just rejected Virgin’s first application for a £500 million bailout.

Virgin Flying Club points don’t have real value until you have enough for a long-haul premium flight.  If you have a few hundred thousand Virgin points then, yes, they are probably worth 1p each.  If you have 20,000 Virgin points, they are certainly not worth £200 because there is no way of using them for a premium redemption.

There is another quirk.  Your Flying Club points are not owned by the airline.  They are owned by Virgin Group Loyalty Company, a standalone business which is jointly owned by Virgin Group and Delta Air Lines.

Does this make your points more or less safe?  It depends on how well capitalised Virgin Group Loyalty Company is.  Does it have enough money in the bank so that it could fund a ‘run’ on redemptions?  I am guessing it doesn’t.  My guess is that it was set up with only a modest cash balance on the basis that – month to month – money coming in from selling points to the airline and other partners would match money spent on redemptions.

The easiest options for emptying your account would be:

1:1 into IHG Rewards Club points (minimum 10,000 points) – gets you 0.4p per mile based on my IHG valuation

2:3 into Hilton Honors points (minimum 10,000 points) – gets you 0.5p per mile based on my 0.33p Hilton valuation

£50 Virgin Group voucher for 12,500 miles – gets you 0.4p per point

There are various hotel and partner flight redemptions too, but as with IAG it is likely that your booking would be cancelled if Virgin Atlantic / Virgin Group Loyalty Company went down as there would be no-one to foot the bill afterwards.

If you want to redeem for any of the above, DO NOT CALL due to long queues.  It is easier to use the SMS text message service on 07481 339184.  Note that it will take a couple of days to get a text reply.  The service operates 24 hours and you MUST reply within 60 minutes of being contacted, even if it is 3am.  Failure to reply in 60 minutes means that your case is closed and you need to restart the process.

Conclusion

I’m not bailing out of my points balances.  I don’t see any realistic risk in the case of Avios / IAG.  Even with Virgin Atlantic, I’m not prepared to take a 50%+ discount on what I should get for my points to liquidate them in a fire sale.

Some people have told me that they might switch to a cashback, hotel or Membership Rewards credit card for the next few months.  I can see the emotional reasoning behind that.

Logically, however, it makes no sense.  The new points you earn are no different from the points you already have.  If you’re unwilling to keep accumulating more airline miles then logically you should bail out of your current balances too.  Similarly, if you happy to keep your Avios and Virgin Flying Club points where they are, you should be happy to keep on earning a few more via your cards.

If there is a lesson to learn here, it is one I have been banging on about for years.

Transferable points (ie Amex Membership Rewards, Tesco Clubcard, Heathrow Rewards, HSBC Premier credit card points) are more valuable than non-transferable points (Avios, Virgin points) because you have more options.  1 Amex point is worth MORE than 1 Avios, even though they transfer 1:1, because the Amex points give you a lot more flexibility on top.

How to earn Avios from UK credit cards

How to earn Avios from UK credit cards (April 2024)

As a reminder, there are various ways of earning Avios points from UK credit cards.  Many cards also have generous sign-up bonuses!

In February 2022, Barclaycard launched two exciting new Barclaycard Avios Mastercard cards with a bonus of up to 25,000 Avios. You can apply here.

You qualify for the bonus on these cards even if you have a British Airways American Express card:

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There are two official British Airways American Express cards with attractive sign-up bonuses:

British Airways American Express Premium Plus

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British Airways American Express

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You can also get generous sign-up bonuses by applying for American Express cards which earn Membership Rewards points. These points convert at 1:1 into Avios.

American Express Preferred Rewards Gold

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The Platinum Card from American Express

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You should also consider the British Airways Accelerating Business credit card. This is open to sole traders as well as limited companies and has a 30,000 Avios sign-up bonus.

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There are also generous bonuses on the two American Express Business cards, with the points converting at 1:1 into Avios. These cards are open to sole traders as well as limited companies.

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American Express Business Gold

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Click here to read our detailed summary of all UK credit cards which earn Avios. This includes both personal and small business cards.

Category

British Airways and Avios, Virgin Atlantic and Flying Club

Comments (345)

This article is closed to new comments. Feel free to ask your question in the HfP forums.

  • TripRep says:
    17 Mar17 March 05:39

    Possibly, but in all honesty I’m saving my energy to be concerned about taking action to prevent tens of thousands of additional deaths.

    http://www.staythefuckhome.com

    • TripRep says:
      17 Mar17 March 05:40

      UK could be looking at 300-500 thousand deaths over the next year and almost 8 million needing hospital admission.
      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/uk-coronavirus-crisis-to-last-until-spring-2021-and-could-see-79m-hospitalised

      • The Original David says:
        17 Mar17 March 05:55

        What are you going to do while you’re at home though? Might as well do some sums on your points balances.

        Or just liquidate the lot on Laithwaites and get sloshed…

        • jamescg says:
          17 Mar17 March 06:12

          Waitrose Cellar has 25% off 6 or more bottles at the moment! A good opportunity to stock up on the good stuff 🙂

        • Russ says:
          17 Mar17 March 08:08

          Wife and I been on near lockdown for two weeks now and I’m having great fun looking through my twitter feed how people are coping. So far I’ve seen a man train his goldfish to jump through a hoop, two Italians playing tennis from their respective flat windows and how to make a treadmill with olive oil sloshed on the floor. Today I am going to make the final division and put plasterboard between our bathrooms which will make two separate dwellings. I’ve got the garage, barbecue, outdoor bar and sit on lawn mower. She’s got the kitchen, laundry and office 🙂 🙂 🙂

          • Spursdebs says:
            17 Mar17 March 09:34

            That’s lucky just in time for the lawn to have it’s first spring cut!

          • Russ says:
            17 Mar17 March 10:24

            That’s lucky just in time for the lawn to have it’s first spring cut!

            These things take time Spurs….

            So, Spurs, end of the world, wife’s safely locked away, fancy coming over to my place and seeing my loo roll collection 🙂

          • Spursdebs says:
            17 Mar17 March 10:46

            Haha is it quilted or 2 ply ?

          • Michael C says:
            17 Mar17 March 10:49

            (I bet it’s Izal !!)

          • Spursdebs says:
            17 Mar17 March 11:02

            Omg my grandad used to have that! Mind you he was a hard nasty bast**d.

      • Nick_C says:
        17 Mar17 March 06:10

        I don’t need the Guardian to come up with scare mongering statistics for me. That possible conclusion has been clear to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.

        What we have to hope for is that isolation and quarantine measures for the most vulnerable will reduce the number of deaths dramatically.

        If it doesn’t, then the current steps will have been pointless. We could have carried on as usual and let nature take its course. The fittest would have survived and the economy would have been protected.

        I’m not going to try to predict mortality rates. But I predict VAFC will stop transfers out to Hilton PDQ.

        I’ve got enough wine in the garage to see me through a quarantine period. If I lose my Avios, well easy come, easy go!

        This crisis is bringing out the worst in people. But it’s also bringing out the best in people. There was almost a wartime spirit in Tescos last night, and I shared jokes with a few strangers who I wouldn’t normally have spoken to. If only I could get the voice of Vera Lynn out of my head.

        Top shopping trip. Avoid the 7am queues outside Aldi where you will find the potential Spivs and Looters. Go to Tesco at 9pm where you will find the pragmatists who realise that fresh ready meals can be frozen, kitchen towels can replace toilet paper, and spam may not be so bad after all.

        Keep well everyone. And let’s all be nice to each other.

        • Ian says:
          17 Mar17 March 06:21

          I know you are partly joking, but never use kitchen roll in place of loo roll. It’ll block your drains within hours as it doesn’t;t disintegrate like loo roll is designed to do.

          If you have to use it put is safely into the dustbin.

          • Singapore says:
            17 Mar17 March 06:40

            or use toilet roll…. it wont run out and the other stuff will chafe.

          • Spursdebs says:
            17 Mar17 March 06:53

            I’m so glad when I renovated my house 2 years ago I put in a bidet, no panicking over loo roll for me! Practical to the end that’s me lol

          • Bagoly says:
            17 Mar17 March 20:57

            I was a little shocked to find when visiting client’s Sao Paolo office that they throw the soiled loo paper in the bin rather than down the loo.
            Presumably because the plumbing pipes are too small/sensitive.

            Covid seems to spread only by respiratory route.
            When the next cholera-derivative comes along, Brazil is likely to be well stuffed.

        • Spursdebs says:
          17 Mar17 March 06:36

          While you are in Tesco’s and other shops can you all
          Spare a thought for the staff. The amount of abuse my Son and his colleagues have been getting is disgusting.

        • ChrisC says:
          17 Mar17 March 06:38

          You don’t need expensive ready meals. Make up your own by buying things like mince and chicken and freezing them and cooking them fresh when you need too. Much cheaper as well.

          Mind I’m not sure that would work with the woman i overheard in Morrisons saying she only wanted dried pasta because she didn’t know how to cook fresh!

          • Spursdebs says:
            17 Mar17 March 06:42

            Haha that’s funny. I said to my friend we will be ok as we know how to cook from scratch and cheaply. My friend said there was fighting in Aldi’s in either Barnet or Finchley on Sunday!

          • meta says:
            17 Mar17 March 07:00

            There’s plenty of fresh food. Nobody is buying that. Since everyone will stay at home, you might as well start cooking.

        • TripRep says:
          17 Mar17 March 07:03

          Nick, glad you don’t need it, but sadly many haven’t got a clue what’s going to happen if they don’t, it’s highly likely we’ll all know someone that loses someone to this.

          My next flights are Nov & Feb, both of which I expect to be cancelled/postponed.

          • Jill(Kinkell) says:
            17 Mar17 March 12:49

            My next trip is London in June then a biggie round Peru and Galapagos in Oct/November . I’ll worry about that one later if I’m still alive.

        • Spursdebs says:
          17 Mar17 March 07:07

          Our local chippy does a spam fritter non of that posh London food for us country folk.

        • Mac says:
          17 Mar17 March 07:35

          Perhaps you shouldn’t read newspapers anymore

        • TGLoyalty says:
          17 Mar17 March 07:41

          @triprep the line before that where he explains it’s the at risk that must lock themselves away that’s important to his next line.

          The virus isn’t going anywhere they are working on a test to see if you’ve had it in the past and not known about it. Once that’s been developed and used they will soon realise it’s been all around in Very large numbers for months. Estimates for the UK are that 30-50k have it I’m not even going to guess how many have had it and got over it.

        • Brian says:
          17 Mar17 March 07:53

          There’s a wartime spirit in other supermarkets too, what with all the fighting over loo roll.

      • Happy22 says:
        17 Mar17 March 07:45

        Maybe we should be asking why with supposedly the best healthcare system in the world according to the Guardian, we have only 5,000 respirators to the US’s 160,000 and why Germany has 5x the number of critical care beds per 100,000 population.

      • Paul Pogba says:
        17 Mar17 March 07:58

        Dignity share price up 10% yesterday! Think of the opportunities!

        • Spursdebs says:
          17 Mar17 March 08:05

          I signed my new will last Saturday the person doing it said she’s got so much work on!

        • Rob says:
          17 Mar17 March 09:02

          Dignity was my deal when I worked in PE. It can’t cope with spikes because it hasn’t the staff. Funerals in a spike are far less profitable than those at normal times because lots of expensive temporary labour is needed.

          • Jill(Kinkell) says:
            17 Mar17 March 12:55

            Just been to a funeral ( totally unconnected to virus) Every second pew deliberately empty. Will waiting to be signed. Better leave Costa ( everyone leaving empty tables in between) and dash home. Highland has 1/2 cases .

      • AJA says:
        17 Mar17 March 08:11

        I like the Guardian but this sort of sensationalist article is not helpful. Anyone can do the maths and multiply the population by the currently assumed death rates to draw a very negative conclusion.

        Obviously this is a global crisis and there will be a lot of casualties but those figures are probably towards the worse case scenario in their projections.

        The Guardian is also very opposed to everything the Tories and in particular this current UK government does. So this article must be measured against that backdrop.

        It’s right to question and to hold politicians to account but a bit less of the sensationalist reporting of tweets as news is needed. Reporting a Tweet that the Brazilian president had the virus and by association the US President too, turned out to be false. I’ve yet to see a mea culpa from the Guardian….

        All newspapers are desperate for people to click on articles and the more sensationalist the better.

        It’s also preaching to its own bubble. The circulation of the Guardian is very small, latest ABC figures for Jan2020 show it sold 132k copies per day. The DT outsells it by a factor of nearly 3 and the Sun, the DM and the Metro each by a factor of 10. Those figures are physical papers, so there will be a much higher readership online but I suspect the proportion of UK readership is roughly similar bearing in mind that the Guardian has US and Australian editions.

        • BlueThroughCrimp says:
          17 Mar17 March 09:54

          Watch the Hannah Fry Pandemic documentary on the iPlayer. Without basic handwashing their modelling was 800K deaths from a pandemic!
          Handwashing really reduces, and slows the spread.

        • memesweeper says:
          17 Mar17 March 13:24

          the Guardian in print circulation isn’t so big, but it’s surprisingly widely-read online

      • Lady London says:
        17 Mar17 March 19:17

        Does the UK only have about 4,000 ICU beds and most are already occupied? Our ratio of hospital beds overall seems much lower tha other countries in Europe.

    • Mac says:
      17 Mar17 March 07:32

      Anyone who wanted to be taken seriously wouldn’t put a swear word in their website name

      • AJA says:
        17 Mar17 March 08:18

        I think it’s funny. It reminded me of The Catherine Tate show character who says to Martin. “I’ll tell you what is” and then spouts some spurious web address

        And the word itself has become so overused it’s lost its impact unlike the “c” word and no I don’t mean Coronavirus 🙂

  • Spursdebs says:
    17 Mar17 March 06:19

    Tell you what I’ve done, I’ve booked 3 reward flights for end of year/ beginning of next. One to use my 241 before expires the other two, one was already booked for September but the dates I really wanted were for November they became available last week booked that. If I have to cancel so be it but if not I’m off for rest, and I’ve still got a healthy stash of points left.
    If that upsets the virtual signallers I don’t give a flying F!
    I spend my life in semi self isolation anyway I’m used to the isolation and getting on with it, while dealing with illness.
    Just in case the commie flu gets me I’ve told my son how to get my stash of points used back, I see no point in wasting them cos I’ve died.

    • Darren says:
      17 Mar17 March 06:42

      Excellent work

    • Anna says:
      17 Mar17 March 07:30

      Good on you Debs, as soon as I can claw my 2 companion vouchers back from BA I will be doing the same! I am just about to retire after 28 years in a job where we deal with crises 24/7, and there’s very little I haven’t seen over the years. As any psychologist will confirm, to survive mentally in the long term you need to keep a sense of humour and learn to find the positives. It probably won’t happen but when I couldn’t sleep at 3 am I was looking at luxury Scottish lodges on the internet and wondering if hot tubs were safe!

      (Before anyone accuses me of selfishness, I’m off to Tesco in a bit – and I hate supermarkets at the best of times – to do a shop for our local foodbank which is really suffering. Might as well use some of the money I now won’t be spending on holiday)

      • Spursdebs says:
        17 Mar17 March 07:44

        Thanks Anna, you know a bit about my life and I’m not joining the doom and gloom merchants. I’ve cancelled my trip away for next weekend, I was only going down the road just to get some sleep and a rest for two nights, but I can’t put Mum or myself at risk. I’ve organised all my family to look after each other and if I’m taken ill I’ve got mum covered. I’ve cancelled all visits by district nurses I can and will do what’s needed. They can use their time on people who have no one. I’m only going out today to take dog to vet and pick up prescriptions that chemist won’t do. As for Scotland be careful of midges my brother got bitten so badly last year they had to come home early.

  • Metopes says:
    17 Mar17 March 06:37

    OT: Just rang to cancel an avios booking, seems the £1 cancellation for any amount doesn’t work over the phone and I would loose the full £67 I paid but get back the 16k avios. I Should have cancelled before they removed the online option

    • Anna says:
      17 Mar17 March 07:32

      At least you got the option, there are reports of BA only offering vouchers or similar to some pax trying to cancel award flights!

    • TGLoyalty says:
      17 Mar17 March 07:44

      It’s a maximum of £35 lost per booking/passenger on booking usually.

  • Roger says:
    17 Mar17 March 06:48

    Slight OT – Why has BA disabled Avios redemption cancellation option online?
    When attempting to cancel it takes me to refund via voucher.
    It does not even say whether my flight is cancelled or not.

    Avios booking should be flexible as per T&Cs and it does not appear to be.
    any idea what’s going on here?

    • Shoestring says:
      17 Mar17 March 06:53

      It’s a deliberate measure to conserve cash, as obvs giving you a voucher means BA holds onto your cash and you have effectively also promised to spend your points in the next 12 months

      I’d like to know what happens if a flight is cancelled but you do nothing – would you get an automatic refund or is the system going to re-ticket you in August???

      • Lev441 says:
        17 Mar17 March 07:05

        Hopefully it will give you the option to rebook or cancel as per normal but who knows..?

        To be honest stupid move by BA as now they’ll add more people who need to call up and add extra demand for the call centres which are probably already near to breaking point. As much as possible should be able to be done online/ourselves.

        I have my whole extended family on Avios tickets for the Easter holidays which I know isn’t happening but I was holding off cancelling to wait and see if BA were still running the flights. If not would have saved £70 per person as they were all booked as 2 x one ways.

        • Anna says:
          17 Mar17 March 07:35

          +1, I’m in pretty much the same boat. If I can’t get through to BA nearer the time I’ll be presenting myself at the airport and asking for my Avios and fees back, even if it does mean losing £35 pp. Voucher no use to me.

      • Russ says:
        17 Mar17 March 09:19

        Not being well versed on these things but I thought credit notes were illegal in the UK? Is this not a credit note?

      • Lady London says:
        17 Mar17 March 19:32

        Plus with the voucher they can charge whatever the market will bear when you come to use it. Then there is inevitably a breakage % with vouchers.

    • Simon says:
      17 Mar17 March 08:20

      Removing an online option seems crazy at this time, all I think is they know the bug that RFS can be cancelled for 50p so want to do it manually to keep the full amount.

      • Lady London says:
        17 Mar17 March 20:06

        +1.
        I’d try on multiple browsers and mobile Android and iPhone just in case one is left working.

    • Lady London says:
      17 Mar17 March 19:44

      Would be similar to BA and other airlines sending you an email, when they cancel a flight, saying you can have a refund. Or, possibly, refund or rebook.

      What is not mentioned is the right to duty of care which they can also be required to provide if you need a reroute, ie you still want to travel on a replacement ticket.

      Airlines are supposed to advise you of your rights in these situations but it’s amazing how often key parts are not included when you hear from them. To cover their a$$ if they do mention you are likely to have an innocuous-looking generic link provided that you will have to follow to about 20 places (and work out where on each page to click and get it right for the 19 subsequent links) before the information about duty of care is even given to you.

      You have a better chance of winning a 5 race accumulator at Sandown Races than being effectively informed of your rights by even the big airlines (and same difficulty of mistrained agents if you request those rights).

  • Claire says:
    17 Mar17 March 07:13

    Do i need to phone up to convert virgin miles to ihg. I was sitting on a few hoping to redeem with flybe but not enough for any decent flight redemptions. Went online but cant see how to transfer them out.

  • meta says:
    17 Mar17 March 07:21

    Some hotels will inevitably start closing. My father works at a Marriott property in Europe and they will be closing for the next two months starting tomorrow. They also can’t do any maintenance/cash in the meantime as they have run out of cash as almost 100% drop in bookings (the hotel mainly depended on big groups, so understandable). And of course, there are stuff redundancies…

  • Christian says:
    17 Mar17 March 07:30

    Oh if it happens it happens. I never considered them as cash or an investment. They were invariably a pain to cash in, with flights available a bit of a compromise. Even with a 2-4-1 voucher, it still cost £1000 (a hefty ticket price in anyone’s book) to go anywhere nice. They came as as a consequence of spending I was making anyway. To be honest it just wouldn’t bother me if they all went up in smoke.

    • Anna says:
      17 Mar17 March 07:36

      True – I always call this a game and sometimes you will lose!

      • Spursdebs says:
        17 Mar17 March 10:52

        I’m off to do the Tesco pet insurance before offer runs out, I’m not giving in without a right sod you virus! I told my son on Saturday when I die he’s not to do a wake and buy a load of people drinks and waste money on expensive funeral he’s to do it as cheap as possible and take the money saved and have a nice holiday.

      • Lady London says:
        17 Mar17 March 19:48

        If you’d been playing the game for a certain period and especially if you’d taken profits (flown / stayed) as you went you’d still be ahead even if you lost everything.

        The average punter (not reading HfP or others) , not so much.

  • Mac says:
    17 Mar17 March 07:37

    I will be panic transferring some Virgin points this week, nowhere else to use them

    • TGLoyalty says:
      17 Mar17 March 07:47

      Panic is working really well everywhere else …

      In all honesty i wouldn’t touch them and I’m not touching mine. I don’t want to add to the pressure on Virgin by expecting them to pay hard cash out to wine sellers or Hilton etc

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