Amex 241 flight downgraded from Club World to WTP at check-in

[Raskolnikov]

Hi

I’m curently at Heathrow T5 having checked in for my flight to Tokyo at 13:00 which was booked on an Amex 241. But we’ve been downgraded from Club to WTP, and were told that we’ve been picked for a downgrade specifically because we booked early (as you have to book at T-355 to get a Tokyo flight on Avios) and so we were on the “cheapest” tickets.

They’ve offered us £200 each, but that doesn’t seem enough (as it’s not even anywhere near the differential between between the cash price of WTP and Club, let alone covering any form of redress). They also can’t confirm whether we’ll still get the Club World catering (or be able to just the Club facilities on board) in our downgraded seats.

What’s the best course of action? And is there any way I can ensure they don’t do exactly the same thing on the return flight in a couple of weeks? Is £200 really all we can expect, or should we also get some Avios refunded as well?

And given that I earned the Amex 241 voucher specifically to use for this holiday, and don’t want to have wasted it on a WTP flight rather than a CW flight, is BA likely to reinstate the voucher (not that I’m particularly disposed to flying BA again at the moment!)

Thanks!

[JDB]

@Raskolnikov – I’m sorry to hear this. You are entitled to considerably more than the £200 each offered. You are entitled to 75% of the Avios for the affected sector x 2 (even though you used the voucher effectively only to pay for one person) and 75% of the cash element although that is calculated after deducting the actual disbursements, so may amount to £0 after deducting the APD (which is the same fir WTP/Club) and the Heathrow PSC currently also the same for each class. You need to make a claim to BA for this sum (tell them the Avios & £ amount) although they may try to fob you off with the difference which will be less.

Unfortunately I think it’s fairly unlikely you will get any type of Club service or benefits on the flight, nor is there really anything you can do re the return flight.

[executiveclubber]

That’s such a blow, I’d be really disappointed to be downgraded on such a long flight. There’s little you can do for the flight home, but you’d be particularly unlucky to be downgraded both ways. As per advice above, you can look forward to an Avios reimbursement which will be beyond what you spent, allowing you to hopefully take another Club return trip.

PS – Have you been offered lounge access? I’d be asking a supervisor for that. And I’d be politely enquiring with the customer service desk to see if there’s been any movements – there’s a slim chance you may still find that somebody hasn’t checked in on time, and you could return to the seats you actually wanted.

[NorthernLass]

I think I’ve read before that as long as you don’t sign anything (i.e. to absolve BA of any other liability), you can take the £200 and still claim the full downgrade reimbursement?

Also it’s definitely been reported here previously that people have successfully negotiated a move to another flight in the original cabin class following being notified of a downgrade, but of course that would depend on whether this such seats are actually available in this case.

[Froggee]

Once the dust settles:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2021/02/15/compensation-for-british-airways-downgrade/

[Raskolnikov]

Many thanks,

Yes, they let us use the fast track security (they had to walk us through as our tickets now don’t show us at being Club) and let us into the lounge (after we explained the situation) where we’re now trying to make best use of it given that we’re unlikely to get the Club meal (or even a decent sleep) on the flight.

They’ve so far passed us to 2 different staff members, neither of whom seem to know what the escalation policy for this is (or who are willing to call anyone else who might, although they were at least both openly apologetic about the shocking level of customer service that BA provide, so there’s that…) We’ve now been told to wait until midday and then speak to both Guest Services in the lounge AND a manager who will apparently be waiting for us at the gate from midday (ie an hour before the flight) – though I’m not sure how we’re supposed to speak to both of these people at the same time when they’ll be in completely different places, or whether we’ll even know which gate it is by midday anyway, but we’ll see!)

They have also said that there’s a couple of transit CW passengers due to arrive this morning to transfer onto our flight, so fingers crossed their flight is delayed (…not really..! 🙂

Cheers

[Garethgerry]

So sorry to hear about this, I hopefully they let you into lounge whilst you wait for any news.

As one-off the many HFP readers who use 241 at 355 days out , not happy to hear them say explicitly they picked on you.

By the way what status do you have with the executive club, has no status impacted BA decision.

Hang out for the full 75% on both tickets you are entitled to.

[executiveclubber]

I’m glad you’re at least in the lounge. The staff at the customer service desk can at least share if any club pax don’t make it, and the gate staff can see what’s going on too, but most seat moves are done by algorithm with little human oversight.

I wonder if you fancy a night in Heathrow & being put onto the next flight out instead and see if they’d allow this? Frustratingly, but sometimes to your advantage, BA agents seem to have complete jurisdiction over the rules.

[cercwc76]

May i know for solo traveler and using the BA 241 with reduced avios, are we claim the 75% avios based on the total avios (reduced one) paid for the flight or the original amount of avios before 50% discount for solo traveler in the seat downgraded situation?

[JDB]

cercwc76 wrote:

May i know for solo traveler and using the BA 241 with reduced avios, are we claim the 75% avios based on the total avios (reduced one) paid for the flight or the original amount of avios before 50% discount for solo traveler in the seat downgraded situation?

The 75% should come off the full Avios to capture the value of the voucher or they need to return the voucher if that suited you better, but the expiry would remain the same. Neither is likely to be BA’s first offer.

[cercwc76]

Thanks for the info.

[TGLoyalty]

Rotten situation at the time but once the dust settles you might find 150k Avios back but still flying to Tokyo in WTP (normally 50k) while getting the on the ground experience might not be so bad.

Throw in another 50k or so Avios and a 2-4-1 voucher and you could be back east in CW next year.

[Jill Kinkell]

@rasolnikov. “we’ve been picked for a downgrade specifically because we booked early (as you have to book at T-355 to get a Tokyo flight on Avios) and so we were on the “cheapest” tickets.”

Were the gate staff making this up? How would they know when you booked?
It seems really unfair that by being proactive paying up a year in advance , get treated like this and downgraded because of a “cheap” ticket.
Is it not the case that for overbooking, volunteers should be called for in the first instance?
I usually bag my long haul seats at t-355 , and they are usually 2 of the 4 promised CW seats made available on every flight. Those 4 seats should be protected from being turfed out of them .

Good advice from the other posters to lessen the disappoint

[simon s]

Interested to know if the op could insist on being transferred to another flight/airline later or the following day where there is availability in C instead of the downgrade?

And what about other airlines, even if not one world or direct.

Anyone know BA’s policy or how they would respond to such a request.

[JDB]

simon s wrote:

Interested to know if the op could insist on being transferred to another flight/airline later or the following day where there is availability in C instead of the downgrade?

And what about other airlines, even if not one world or direct.

Anyone know BA’s policy or how they would respond to such a request.

You can’t insist on anything to the extent that the APR don’t require the airline to do anything other than reimburse you for the downgrade. BA will sometimes agree to put you on a later flight or one the next day but only on their own services and that is done as a matter of goodwill rather than obligation.

In an instance such as this thread, the OP was on the second of the only two BA flights to Tokyo so it’s a pretty horrible choice, either a long stint in WTP or lose a day of holiday/messed up arrangements to fly in greater comfort. The OP is going to get something like 150,000 Avios by way of compensation but I would be pushing for an additional substantial ex gratia sum. The difficulty is that BA likes to offer the difference in cabins which is lower and when that goes to CEDR the initial £200 gets rolled into the settlement offer, such that any ex gratia element is lost.

[TGLoyalty]

I might be wrong but the £200 offer can’t preclude you from claiming your statutory rights under law regardless of whatever worthless piece of paper they ask you to sign?

Not that you’re suggesting it does @JDB but there was a comment further up I missed.

You’d think BA would be bored of these going to CEDR (and CEDR bored of them) so hopefully they pay up the 150k sharpish when you get back.

[Blair Waldorf Salad]

Sigh, this is such a gap in APRs. I’d rather not fly and get an airfare refund.

If these situations do occur, what documentation ought people be looking to get from the airline? Is the boarding pass for the downgraded class sufficient? Often BPs can be ambiguous.

[JDB]

TGLoyalty wrote:

I might be wrong but the £200 offer can’t preclude you from claiming your statutory rights under law regardless of whatever worthless piece of paper they ask you to sign?

Not that you’re suggesting it does @JDB but there was a comment further up I missed.

You’d think BA would be bored of these going to CEDR (and CEDR bored of them) so hopefully they pay up the 150k sharpish when you get back.

No, the £200 doesn’t preclude you from claiming the correct calculation however they might try to frame it. What frequently happens though is that they offer you the difference, here between 32,500 and 50,000 (peak/off peak) so max 100k for two. The pax claims 150k which they refuse and when challenged at CEDR they say well the pax has been paid in full 100k + £400 so what was originally intended as an additional ex gratia payment is simply rolled up into what they owed you in the first place.

[JDB]

Blair Waldorf Salad wrote:

Sigh, this is such a gap in APRs. I’d rather not fly and get an airfare refund.

If these situations do occur, what documentation ought people be looking to get from the airline? Is the boarding pass for the downgraded class sufficient? Often BPs can be ambiguous.

Sometimes, BA will hand you a letter but I would be fairly surprised for BA to challenge the fact that a passenger was downgraded. The boarding card vs original booking ought to suffice.

You are right about the gap, but stuff that happens regularly today simply wasn’t envisaged twenty plus years ago and it has proved impossible to get consensus from 27 countries to change the rules in any meaningful way.

[Raskolnikov]

As an update…!

Guest services in the lounge were of no help: they just palmed us off to speak to someone at the gate, and at the gate they just told us to wait with the growing crowd of other passengers who were on a standby/downgrade watchlist (in the end about 12 of us in total).

In the end they downgraded me (and most of the others at the gate, although one lady was bumped off the flight completely), but not my husband who ended up in business next to another man who’d been kept in business while his wife was downgraded (so they were actively splitting up couples for some reason: I’m assuming so they can muddy the waters about compensation a bit). And the cabin staff were apparently a bit annoyed that those 2 seats had been assigned to passengers as they were supposed to have been blocked as staff rest seats – so this whole process is (almost) as irritating for the cabin crew (who lose their rest seats) and the check-in and gate staff (who have to deal with angry/annoyed passengers but don’t seem to have the power to actually do anything) as it is for passengers.

Also, at no point were we provided with anything in writing about our general rights/entitlements following downgrade (so I guess BA are hoping that most people will just let it slide).

[TooPoorToBeHere]

You won’t get the “you were downgraded because redemption” statement in writing, I fear, but: while the advice about Mennens and 75% is sound, I wonder if there is an Amex angle here as well.

You have paid a product fee and not received the advertised benefit.

[CJD]

Would be interested to know if the other couple who were split up were also on a 2-4-1.

[AJA]

@Raskolnikov I am so sorry that this happened to you. Were you the one who made the booking ie are you the voucher holder or was it your husband?

I have a suspicion that if your husband was the voucher holder BA will try to say you aren’t entitled to compensation as your ticket was “free” ie you paid no Avios for your seat. This is wrong as the voucher is effectively discounting the price of the second ticket and you still paid a substantial cash sum for the seat in Club. So do fight this if BA tries this tactic.

I hope they don’t do this and that you get 75% of the Avios and any cash element that you are entitled to.

It must have been very frustrating for you and while I also feel sorry for the cabin crew who lost their rest seats I think that was the right thing to do as fare paying passengers ought to be treated better.

I would forget about it for now and deal with it when you get back. I hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday and that the return trip goes smoothly.

[executiveclubber]

AJA wrote:

I also feel sorry for the cabin crew who lost their rest seats

I think it’s extremely unprofessional (and rather BA) of the staff to even inform the passengers this was the case. After all the stress of being downgraded, you’re then made to feel a nuisance for sitting in the seat you booked?

[AJA]

@executiveclubber I agree with you. Very poor by BA crew. However frustrating it must have been for them they should not be expressing that to customers.

The alternative is that BA could’ve bumped the extra 2 passengers off the flight as they already did with one passenger.