Amex 241 flight downgraded from Club World to WTP at check-in

[Colin MacKinnon]

AJA wrote:

@executiveclubber I agree with you. Very poor by BA crew. However frustrating it must have been for them they should not be expressing that to customers.

Actually, the whole episode is perhaps actually “very good” by crew. Their rest seats are part of their staff package negotiated by their union. So for them to surrender them to help passengers is top notch.

(I thought they might be rest seats mandated by the CAA, but that obviously cannot be the case.)

ps. Does BA use 241 since you cannot do a s75 on charge cards? Would have thought a drop fom a flat bed to a seat is a substantial enough change? Don’t want to tempt fate , but I can’t/don’t do simple seats for more than c4-5 hours.

[Garethgerry]

A 241 must be done on Amex credit card. So potentially could try S75 but…..

Never heard of a S75 being used. What would anyone claim back from Amex. The cash difference between fares ?. Would you get away with that ???

Certainly the Avios difference is less than 75% you are entitled to so don’t go that route.

Stick to the 75% plus goodwill. I think splitting couples is abominable.

Personally as an old boomer with time to spare would have taken advice earlier and asked for tomorrow and night in Sofitel

[Garethgerry]

I also wonder, as clearly they didn’t get their value for money from the 241 is it possible to claim the Amex premium card fee back from Amex either legally under S75 as it is paid by credit card , or is goodwill.

Or do you put it as part of claim to BA

Just a thought

[wandering.aengus]

This happened to me, but two days before the flight (also LHR-HND, also used the 241 to book CW). Downgraded from CW to WTP.

I called BA and demanded they rebook me in business class, on another carrier if needed. They managed to find availability on JAL via CDG arriving 8 hours later.

After the flight, I asked for delayed flight compensation (since the rebooked flight arrived so much later). They argued that because I rejected their downgrade offer, that I shouldn’t receive it (even though I was supposed to be booked in an equivalent class of service). I then took the case to CEDR where BA offered to settle, and I received £1040 in compensation.

Overall, happy with the outcome. Arrived 8 hours later, but flew JAL (far superior to BA) AND got £1040.

[BA Flyer IHG Stayer]

@Garethgerry

Very imaginative but no.

Amex isn’t going to refund you under those circumstances and I can imagine the BA claim handler just laughing at such a claim as well.

[Dom]

@wandering.aengus out of curiousity what level status did you or your companion have with BA at the time (if any)?

[JDB]

I can’t see how s75 would help as Parliament has determined the quantum of damages applicable if a passenger is downgraded. Anything extra is goodwill by smart negotiation rather than legal entitlement.

Re splitting couples, we don’t know if that was the choice of BA or passenger election so at least one of the partners could travel in greater comfort.

[wandering.aengus]

Dom wrote:

@wandering.aengus out of curiousity what level status did you or your companion have with BA at the time (if any)?

Companion had Diamond on Cathay at the time (BA Gold equivalent). I had BA Bronze.

[Aardvark]

Re -Raskolnikov, I wonder if the day before you had been allocated a seat and therefore had a boarding pass/checked in. I always book 355 days in advance to CPT (Bus) but not book seats but wait for the allocated ones, 24 hrs before. If you weren’t checking any luggage in, then you wouldn’t know until you reach the gate! Bit of a shock! Does this happen a lot?

[Garethgerry]

Looks like non BA status doesn’t matter. So much for one world

[Teej]

I’m taking the 1pm to Tokyo on Friday and I also booked Club World at +355 using a 241 voucher. It looks like the flight is rammed (there are only two seats on sale and they’re both in WTP), so I may be stuffed if it is already oversold.

I’ll check in at +1 and see if I’ve been downgraded. If so I’ll get right on the phone and hassle BA for a connection to the JAL flight from Frankfurt.

[rosswill]

Raskolnikov wrote:

Guest services in the lounge were of no help: they just palmed us off to speak to someone at the gate, and at the gate they just told us to wait with the growing crowd of other passengers who were on a standby/downgrade watchlist (in the end about 12 of us in total).

In the end they downgraded me (and most of the others at the gate, although one lady was bumped off the flight completely

Was this a last minute aircraft change, overbooking or a knock on of other cancellations I wonder?

[BJ]

I’ve just read through this and a key point was missed. When faced with a similar situation as the OP time should not be wasted exploring options with lounge CS or gate staff, instead passengers should head to the main BA CS desks on the main floor of the A gates. There the staff do have the power and routinely do re-ticket itineraries in cases such as this. I’m not saying it’s straightforward, you will generally have to gight for your case but it can be won, been there and done that. Given the number of downgrades and the passenger being dumped yesterday though I doubt it would have made any difference in the OP case thos time.similarly at check-in, do not waste time with those staff, go to CS/ticketing counter.

[Arnerd]

Raskolnikov wrote:

were told that we’ve been picked for a downgrade specifically because we booked early (as you have to book at T-355 to get a Tokyo flight on Avios) and so we were on the “cheapest” tickets.

That’s incredbile. I was downgraded earlier this year and the explanation given to me was that I was chosen (together with a second passenger) because we had been the last to book tickets. I had booked the seat the day before. Surely BA has to have an official, logical, and consistent way of choosing who gets booted when these situations arise….

[executiveclubber]

BJ wrote:

I’ve just read through this and a key point was missed. When faced with a similar situation as the OP time should not be wasted exploring options with lounge CS or gate staff, instead passengers should head to the main BA CS desks on the main floor of the A gates

This is very useful knowledge.

I feel like we need to make a wiki with pinned posts on what to do in situations like these.

[ed_fly]

Arnerd wrote:

Raskolnikov wrote:

were told that we’ve been picked for a downgrade specifically because we booked early (as you have to book at T-355 to get a Tokyo flight on Avios) and so we were on the “cheapest” tickets.

That’s incredbile. I was downgraded earlier this year and the explanation given to me was that I was chosen (together with a second passenger) because we had been the last to book tickets. I had booked the seat the day before. Surely BA has to have an official, logical, and consistent way of choosing who gets booted when these situations arise….

I’d very much suspect they do. I assume it takes into account the passenger CIV score, status level and how much they’re on the hook for compensating each passenger.

[JDB]

@ed_fly – I don’t think the amount they are on the hook for in terms of compensation comes into the equation as they have no idea how to calculate it and no quick answer.

@Raskolnikov – BA does have a ‘policy’ but for obvious reasons they don’t publish it and it’s also a little grey around the edges. These things are usually predetermined, so technically not compliant with Article 4 but there’s no sanction for non-compliance and that too may have get outs anyway.

[Annie]

Maybe I’m a pessimist or maybe I’m just a super planner but before every long haul flight with BA, I research my options for other flights to get me where I was going at a similar time and in the same class.
I read on here of cancellations, down grades etc far too frequently and in the event that it happens to me I want to know exactly what I want so I can call BA and request it without being in a blind panic.

[ed_fly]

JDB wrote:

@ed_fly – I don’t think the amount they are on the hook for in terms of compensation comes into the equation as they have no idea how to calculate it and no quick answer.

fare bucket would surely give the operating airline a pretty rough and ready indication.

[Speedfriend]

Can anyone give an explanation why they would need two seats as crew rest areas? Surely the plane is equipped with the required rest areas?

[JDB]

@ed_fly – the fare bucket wouldn’t help you a lot without the full fare basis and designator. You will find people in Y who have paid more than those in premium classes and also the ops people who decide these issues really aren’t very fares/ticketing savvy.

[Raskolnikov]

Just responding to a couple of queries/posts

I’m a lowly BA Exec blue member, so I guess BA don’t really care that much about the likes of me.

I hadn’t been able to check in online at T-24h as it just gave me an error saying something along the lines of “Online check in is not available for this flight”. I suspected that it might be because we were going to be downgraded, as (a) a friend had had a similar message on Easyjet online checkin a few years ago; and (b) when I’d checked the seats the day before (just out of interest as I wasn’t intending on paying to choose, as we’d be happy to just be assigned whichever CW seats were available) there was only one to choose in CW. So I went on the online chat with BA and they told me what I now know to be complete rubbish and I assume was just the usual call-centre “tell the customer anything to get rid of them and make it the problem of the next staff member they interact with” tactic, as they told me that the entire flight was no-online-checkin and so _everyone_ was going to have to check in manually at the airport – so we got there 4 hours early to make sure we’d be one of the first so hopefully we’d be ok (which obviously we weren’t…)

And while we were at the checkin desk I was looking at the BA app for alternative flights so I could suggest bring put on (eg) a later flight – and even then they were _still_ selling seats for my flight in CW (albeit for an eye watering amount of money, which is presumably set by the pricing algorithm to take into account the reimbursement they’d have to make to whichever poor passenger was next at the bottom of list of potential downgrade-ees – who I guess might actually have already checked in and/or chosen their seat and then gets bumped as they’re the cheapest to pay off…)

The other couple where one was downgraded and one wasn’t did _not_ elect to do so: when my husband arrived at his seat in CW the wife of the other passenger had already sat herself in my husband’s seat and wasn’t happy at being removed by the cabin crew and taken back to WTP.

And I’m the Amex cardholder, so technically my (downgraded) flight was the one that was “paid for” and my husband’s (not-downgraded) flight was the “free” one – which makes no sense at all (but not much of this episode does!)

And as the icing on the cake – the weather is terrible in Tokyo right now!

[Skywalker]

Raskolnikov wrote:

The other couple where one was downgraded and one wasn’t did _not_ elect to do so: when my husband arrived at his seat in CW the wife of the other passenger had already sat herself in my husband’s seat and wasn’t happy at being removed by the cabin crew and taken back to WTP.

Surely this belongs on the DYKWIA thread on FT? 😀

[JDB]

ed_fly wrote:

JDB wrote:

@ed_fly – I don’t think the amount they are on the hook for in terms of compensation comes into the equation as they have no idea how to calculate it and no quick answer.

fare bucket would surely give the operating airline a pretty rough and ready indication.

The bucket won’t tell you a whole lot, you would need the whole fare basis and designator and even then it may not help as you will find people in lower classes paying more than those in premium cabins but they probably don’t want to swap. Avios have a value so that would come into the equation. The ops people who decide these things don’t know too much about fares either!

[ed_fly]

JDB wrote:

ed_fly wrote:

JDB wrote:

@ed_fly – I don’t think the amount they are on the hook for in terms of compensation comes into the equation as they have no idea how to calculate it and no quick answer.

fare bucket would surely give the operating airline a pretty rough and ready indication.

The bucket won’t tell you a whole lot, you would need the whole fare basis and designator and even then it may not help as you will find people in lower classes paying more than those in premium cabins but they probably don’t want to swap. Avios have a value so that would come into the equation. The ops people who decide these things don’t know too much about fares either!

I’m not sure what relevance it is that someone in economy may have paid more than someone in business? Surely in terms of selecting a passenger for downgrade from business, they’d only be looking at the passengers who had booked into business for consideration?

I’d have thought that it would be very unusual for someone to have paid more for a non-flexible business ticket / Avios ticket (including attributing BA 1.6p per Avios valuation) vs a fully flex business ticket. however, until someone produces the relevant BA guidance document it’s all speculation.