Amex 241 flight downgraded from Club World to WTP at check-in

[NorthernLass]

The husband didn’t offer to take the WTP seat 😱

A couple of years ago we were told that we’d been selected not to be given breakfast in CW (they hadn’t loaded enough) because we’d been upgraded at the last minute (we hadn’t, but we were on a 241 booking so clearly the lowest of the low!)

[JDB]

NorthernLass wrote:

The husband didn’t offer to take the WTP seat 😱

A couple of years ago we were told that we’d been selected not to be given breakfast in CW (they hadn’t loaded enough) because we’d been upgraded at the last minute (we hadn’t, but we were on a 241 booking so clearly the lowest of the low!)

@NorthernLass – that’s a rather old fashioned view! Maybe there are two husbands?

[NorthernLass]

I’m a tiny bit old-fashioned about some things 😉, but OP specifically referred to husband and wife!

Now you’ve got me wondering if I would expect a wife to defer to me in the same way I’ve become used to my lovely husband doing 🤣. I guess maybe it comes down to me doing all the travel legwork so expecting to enjoy the fruits!

[JDB]

NorthernLass wrote:

I’m a tiny bit old-fashioned about some things 😉, but OP specifically referred to husband and wife!

Now you’ve got me wondering if I would expect a wife to defer to me in the same way I’ve become used to my lovely husband doing 🤣. I guess maybe it comes down to me doing all the travel legwork so expecting to enjoy the fruits!

@NorthernLass the OP has only referred to the wife in the other couple! It doesn’t matter of course. I was reprimanded recently for holding a door open for a woman wheeling a trolley of files and carrying another under her arm. She could apparently do that perfectly for herself thank you.

[HampshireHog]

Am I being forgetful, but I thought that under the regulations the airline was supposed to ask for volunteers? BA never seems to exercise this option?

[JDB]

HampshireHog wrote:

Am I being forgetful, but I thought that under the regulations the airline was supposed to ask for volunteers? BA never seems to exercise this option?

Yes, that is Article 4 referenced some way upthread. There’s no sanction for non-compliance and BA prefers to choose its victims.

[TGLoyalty]

I think is this case it’s better the OP as the voucher holder and therefore full fare payer did get downgraded. Open and shut case for 75k Avios and keeps £200 for the trouble.

[Garethgerry]

I still don’t understand the splitting up of two couples. Very bad PR

[Grandad81]

Following this with interest as a blue member who is in the lounge with my wife on a 2-4-1 on a 16hr flight to Buenos Aires where we had CW boarding passes at 24hrs out, but then downgraded to PE on depositing our luggage. Been told we are entitled to £200 each plus difference in miles but haven’t signed anything. They keep saying there’s a chance of getting CW at the gate, but given there are 13 more people booked into CW than seats (change of plane I think to a 777LGW) then I think I have more hope of sprouting my own wings to fly there.

[NorthernLass]

What format are they offering the £200 in?

That’s a lot of people to find seats for. Being involuntarily offloaded gets you a lot more than being downgraded. Just sayin’ …

[Grandad81]

Nothing yet, been given a letter and told verbally we would get £200 each plus the difference in Avios between CW and PE. But the booking was 220000 return, plus £1200 (for 2) albeit the APD and other legitimate taxes appears to account for approx £320 each (return with most of that being the outbound leg I think).

[Grandad81]

NorthernLass wrote:

What format are they offering the £200 in?

That’s a lot of people to find seats for. Being involuntarily offloaded gets you a lot more than being downgraded. Just sayin’ …

That would definitely be worse, we have a holiday planned for nearly 5 years starting tomorrow afternoon with a tour 4hrs after we land! So if it has to be PE, so be it, would rather than not getting there at all!

[NorthernLass]

You obviously cope better with jet lag than I do, @Grandad81! Hope you’re not delayed.

It’s very poor that BA are (still) misleading people about their entitlements.

This has got me checking if they’re still selling F on our MEX flight next month, and they are, for £14k return, even though I’m pretty sure the cabin is full …

[marks7389]

Grandad81 wrote:

Nothing yet, been given a letter and told verbally we would get £200 each plus the difference in Avios between CW and PE. But the booking was 220000 return, plus £1200 (for 2) albeit the APD and other legitimate taxes appears to account for approx £320 each (return with most of that being the outbound leg I think).

Yes, the UK APD alone will be £202 each. Assuming the taxes for the outbound add up to about £250 each, you would be due back 75% of 220000 Avios plus £50 each, i.e. a total of 165,000 Avios plus £75 between you.

PE Avios would be 110,000 for the return trip with the 2for1 so what they are offering you is 55,000 Avios (one way) plus £400 between you.

Given that most of us would value 110,000 Avios at £1,100 they are attempting to substantially short change you against what you are due under EC261/UK261.

[marks7389]

Meant to say “you would be due back 75% of 110000 Avios plus £50 each” but I can no longer edit….

[Lady London]

Grandad81 wrote:

Nothing yet, been given a letter and told verbally we would get £200 each plus the difference in Avios between CW and PE. But the booking was 220000 return, plus £1200 (for 2) albeit the APD and other legitimate taxes appears to account for approx £320 each (return with most of that being the outbound leg I think).

Sign nothing. If anyone, ever, brings it up then in the time-honoured long-ago words of @JDB, you’ve assumed the £200 is an ex gratia payment….voluntarily provided by BA in addition to your rights.

As it’s a 241 I’m assuming the 220,000 avios was just the payment part for your 1 seat.

So at a minimum, UK / EC261 statute says you are entitled to receive 75% of those 220,000 back due to being downgraded. The statute calls it ‘downgrade reimbursenent’. So 165,000 avios are due back to you by statute, just for your seat. Then the same again for the 2nd seat of 241 pair. So 330,000 avios.

If you’re right about the true taxes within the £1200 cash you also paid being £320 each so total £640, then BA slso owes you 75% of that cash ie (£1200-£640)=£560*75%=£420 in addition to the avios reimbursement above.

You have a very high chance of having to drag these entitlements out of BA with a fight. But if you’re well orgsnised and willing to take the steps needed then there”s nothing ambiguous about your claim, it’s just time and you will get it in full.

If BA really want to be silly and try to deny then if you end up having to MCOL them, then the avios part of your ckaim for 330,000 avios, if they push it that far, will need to be restated at 1.18p (minimum) per avios * 330,000. As an MCOL claim is normaĺly for cash value not avios (only if you hsve to MCOL it though snd not before).

Which is about right for making you face a 16 hour flight openimg the holiday of a lifetime in any sort of seat rathwr than the bed you booked.

I commend you to @TGLoyakty’s post timed 20.35 7th October further up this thread which may give you food for thought (and revengw use of aa further 241 if you can earn a further one to use next yeae 🙂 .

A dirty, dirty trick by BA not to be upfront about your true rights so please enjoy your holiday despite thrir contribution to its start then come back and stick it to them.

[Grandad81]

Thanks all, on board in PE as expected.

That’s better than I was expecting re the Avios, I thought it would be 75% of 110000 between us because of the 2-4-1. If it’s of 220000 then it’s not the end of the world as we still get to Argentina and get a decent chunk back for another trip down the line. Like the OP, hoping now it’s not the same on the return in a couple of weeks!

@Northernlass were both emergency services and so sadly fairly used to weird shifts and body clocks, albeit now I’ve no doubt jinxed it and we’ll be hanging by morning!

[Grandad81]

Thanks Lady London, will deffo just enjoy the holiday and deal accordingly once home. Will keep pushing til we get what we are due in keeping with our rights.

We’re looking on the bright side, at least we aren’t some of those probably bumped into Economy or even off the plane, could always be worse!

Lady London wrote:

Grandad81 wrote:

Nothing yet, been given a letter and told verbally we would get £200 each plus the difference in Avios between CW and PE. But the booking was 220000 return, plus £1200 (for 2) albeit the APD and other legitimate taxes appears to account for approx £320 each (return with most of that being the outbound leg I think).

Sign nothing. If anyone, ever, brings it up then in the time-honoured long-ago words of @JDB, you’ve assumed the £200 is an ex gratia payment….voluntarily provided by BA in addition to your rights.

As it’s a 241 I’m assuming the 220,000 avios was just the payment part for your 1 seat.

So at a minimum, UK / EC261 statute says you are entitled to receive 75% of those 220,000 back due to being downgraded. The statute calls it ‘downgrade reimbursenent’. So 165,000 avios are due back to you by statute, just for your seat. Then the same again for the 2nd seat of 241 pair. So 330,000 avios.

If you’re right about the true taxes within the £1200 cash you also paid being £320 each so total £640, then BA slso owes you 75% of that cash ie (£1200-£640)=£560*75%=£420 in addition to the avios reimbursement above.

You have a very high chancw of having to drag these entitlements out of BA with a fight. But if you’re well orgsnised and willing to take the steps needed then there”s nothing ambiguous about your claim, it’s just time and you will get it in full.

If BA really want to be silly and try to deny then if you end up having to MCOL them, then the avios part of your ckaim for 330,000 avios, if they push it that far, will need to be restated at 1.18p (minimum) per avios * 330,000. As an MCOL claim is normaĺly for cash value not avios (only if you hsve to MCOL it though snd not before).

Which is about right for making you face a 16 hour flight openimg the holiday of a lifetime in any sort of seat rathwr than the bed you booked.

I commend you to @TGLoyakty’s post timed 20.35 7th October further up this thread which may give you food for thought (and revengw use of aa further 241 if you can earn a further one to use next yeae 🙂 .

A dirty, dirty trick by BA not to be upfront about your true rights so please enjoy your holiday despite thrir contribution to its start then come back and stick it to them.

[marks7389]

Lady London wrote:

Grandad81 wrote:

Nothing yet, been given a letter and told verbally we would get £200 each plus the difference in Avios between CW and PE. But the booking was 220000 return, plus £1200 (for 2) albeit the APD and other legitimate taxes appears to account for approx £320 each (return with most of that being the outbound leg I think).

So at a minimum, UK /EC261 statute says you arw entitled to receive 75% of those 220,000 back. Thevstatute calls it doengrade reimbursenent. So 165,000 avios are due back to you by statute jus5 for your sear. Then thr same for the 2nd seat of 241 pair. So 330,000 avios.

If you’re right about the true taxes within the £1200 cash you also paid being £320 each so total £640 thenBA slso owes you 75% of that cash ie (£1200-£640)=£560*75%=£420 in addition to the avios reimbursement above.

That would only be true if both legs were downgraded. As it is (currently) only the outbound, it’s half that in Avios and likely to be substantially less than half the cash given that the RFS cash element is normally equal for outbound and inbound but UK APD means the real taxes are much higher on the outbound.

One other thought is that the flight stops in Rio. You may want to ask the crew about moving into the Club cabin for the onward tag to Buenos Aires (but no idea if this would impact the compensation claim if it were recorded?).

[Lady London]

Yeah correct – only if downgraded on return as well. Missed the 220k was return.

In which case given 16 hour flight awfulness then not too generous a result, at all.

I certainly wouldn’t be caught grovelling for the Rio-Buenos Aires fag end either especially as it could muddy the claim.

[Alex G]

Disgusting behaviour by BA. What is the point of paying for the Amex BAPP card and collecting Avios if BA are deliberately overbooking popular flights and picking on redemptions as the first to be downgraded?

It is adding insult to injury to split up couples and downgrade one of them. I could survive 13 hours in PE if I was sitting next to my partner. I would absolutely hate it if I was on my own.

The Monday HND flight was on a B789, so no equipment change.

And what is this about the crew using J class seats instead of the designated crew rest areas? When I flew to SIN in F on a B789 recently, the IFE in my seat (1E) was not working. 1K and 2K were reserved for crew rest. The purser was very reluctant to move me to 1K, initially saying I could sit in CW and watch the IFE there. He did eventually move me to 1K (after checking with the flight crew). The flight crew could of course have used 1E and 2K to rest, but in the end they did not use either seat. I was left with the impression though that BA operate for the convenience of their own staff, not for the convenience of their passengers. I can understand the flight crew wanting to use the F seats if they are vacant – there are 4 people on the flight deck on these ultra long haul flights – but the passengers should come first.

Really makes me reluctant to book redemptions with BA, and makes me question why I am keeping my Amex BAPP.

It would be useful if people could continue to report their downgrade experiences. The mainstream media should be looking at this. And perhaps Rob could raise it with Amex.

[NorthernLass]

If the cost is the same, I don’t see why it should make a difference, but I don’t see the crew bothering to grass to BA!

Hope you have a fabulous holiday, anyway, @Grandad81 (please tell me that’s not your year of birth!!) We’d love to hear about it if you have time to post.

I was also emergency services, but in my case I think the shifts permanently derailed my circadian rhythms, lol.

[Lady London]

I thought the crew rest areas were in places like above the cabin that would not normally be used for passengers?

[Alex G]

Lady London wrote:

I thought the crew rest areas were in places like above the cabin that would not normally be used for passengers?

They are. That’s why there are no overhead bins in F on the 789. The steep staircase up to the flight crew rest area is behind a door in the galley on the port side. The cabin crew rest area is at the back of the plane. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r3zV4shyELY

[marks7389]

Alex G wrote:

Disgusting behaviour by BA. What is the point of paying for the Amex BAPP card and collecting Avios if BA are deliberately overbooking popular flights and picking on redemptions as the first to be downgraded?

To be fair to BA, in @Grandad81’s case, the aircraft was switched from a Heathrow based 777 with 48 Club Suites to a Gatwick based 777 with 32 Club World Sleeper Seats, presumably due to a lack of serviceable Heathrow based aircraft. Whilst overbooking happens, this is an exception case and, on the plus side, at least an aircraft was available to operate the flight.

It’s also unclear whether companion vouchers are particularly targeted for downgrade. It has long been a subject of debate, but as someone who has probably redeemed 20+ for round trips in CW/First over the years (often with no status), we have never been downgraded.

The reality is that it doesn’t happen as often as you might think from forum reports as no-one ever talks about not having been downgraded.

The real issue is the fact that BA doesn’t advise people of their rights and tries to get away with paying less than they are entitled to when it does happen. That is why it is really important to push for what is due in these cases, including the principle (as per several CEDR rulings) that 75% of the full Avios is to be refunded even where a voucher has been used in lieu of half of them.